Design MBA

Beginner's Guide to Podcasting - Tony Daussat (Host @ Liftoff podcast)

Episode Summary

"Great interviewers listen, react, listen, react and pivot!". My guest today is Tony Daussat who is the host of the Liftoff podcast. In this episode, we discuss best podcasting gear/setup, how to come up with good interview questions, tips on becoming a good interviewer, how to get podcast guests, how to edit a podcast interview (hint - don't remove all the 'ums', 'ahs'), mistakes to avoid and so much more! This is the ultimate designer's guide to starting a podcast!! For show notes, guest bio, and more, please visit: www.designmba.show Level Up Your Design Career (Free Email Course): https://levelup.designmba.show/

Episode Notes

Tony Daussat is an award-winning designer currently working as a Lead Experience Design Strategist at Bottle Rocket Studios in Dallas, TX.  He has worked with some of the world’s most exacting brands including: Hyatt, KFC, BaylorScott & White, Dave & Busters, Fiesta Restaurant Group, Caesars Entertainment, TripCase, FirstData, and Robert Half, to name a few.

He has started and sold two online companies, and is currently the host of the Liftoff podcast, boasting listeners in 150 countries. He is a guest lecturer at Dallas Baptist University, and his public speaking includes Big Design, HOW Design Live etc. In his spare time, Tony enjoys renovating his home and spending time with his wife and two toddlers.

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Episode Transcription

Namaste and welcome. This is Jayneil Dalal and you are listening to the design MBA. This podcast is a real-life MBA program for designers where we interview design hustlers and learn the skills, mindset necessary for a designer to launch a business venture. You can learn more. Find past episodes and stay updated at designMBA.show.

Why are you listening to this podcast? Think about it. Deep down you want to grow in your design career. And I’ve been in your shoes. I’ve pushed pixels for years without really knowing how the hell do I grow in my design career. So, I’ve created a free email course for you to help you level up your design career. The strategies I share in the seven-day email course are actionable and used by over 700 plus designers with success. So, head over to Levelup.designMBA.show or you can find the link to this email course in the show notes. Level up your design career today.

Jayneil Dalal:  Great interviewers listen, react, listen, react and pivot. My guest today is Tony Daussat who is the host of the Experience Design Podcast. Tony has been instrumental in motivating me in the first place to even start a design podcast and more than anything, guiding me as I go on my podcasting journey. If it were not for him, I don't think I would be here doing this episode in the first place. 

 

So, who is Tony Daussat? Tony is an award-winning designer currently working as a lead experience design strategist at Bottle Rocket Studios in Dallas, Texas. He has worked with some of the world's most famous brands including Hyatt, KFC, David Buster, Caesar Entertainment, Trip Case and many more. He has started and sold two online companies and is currently the host of the Experience Design Podcast, hosting listeners in 150 countries. He's a guest lecturer at Dallas Baptist University and his public speaking includes Big Design, Hop Design Live and many other conferences. In his spare time though, Tony enjoys renovating his home and spending time with his wife and two toddlers. 

 

This episode is the ultimate designer's guide to starting a podcast. Why? Because in this episode we discuss best podcasting gear, setup, how to come up with good interview questions, tips on becoming a good interviewer, how do you actually get podcast guests, how to edit a podcast interview, hint: you don't need to remove all the um, uh, mistakes to avoid and so much more. Also, if you are a designer looking to break into the UX field and get a job, you seriously need to check out Tony's course HiredUX.com. Check it out and you'll thank me later and, yeah, tell him Jayneil sent you.

 

Tony, thank you so much for coming on the show. The fact that I am actually doing my podcast and chatting with you is just because of a random conversation that I had with you all the way in September of last year.

 

Tony Daussat:  Well, I’m sorry. Well, it's actually very flattering that you would say that and I think it's a good fit for you because you've got a lot to offer. So, thanks for doing what you do.

 

Jayneil: Absolutely. And for the listeners listening in right now, I was attending the Big Design Conference in 2019 and what happened was they have this like lounge in there where speakers can go and I was just wandering through the lounge and what happened was there's this room that was kind of like closed, I just entered in it and there Tony Daussat was just sitting there and I was like “Hey, let me just sit there” and one thing led to another and Tony shared with me, and he had been doing podcasting at that point for about a year, and he shared with me how he went about doing that and stuff and that conversation inspired me so much but more than anything, he shared with me all the behind the scenes, how to do it. Instead of looking at me as a competitor, he looked at me he's like “Hey, you're a friend. I’m going to teach you all the secrets.” So, I love that about you, man.

 

Tony: Well, thank you. That was such a meet cute as they call it in Hollywood. I had probably just pooped or something and I was just sitting in the green room kind of going over my talk in my head and you pop in and I’m like “What's up, dog. Let's chat.” That was kind of wild.

 

Jayneil: And how did you personally get started with podcasting?

 

Tony: The reason I’m so flattered that you were inspired by me is because I was inspired by Stephen Gates and I would listen to his podcast The Crazy One all the time and I was searching for other podcasts that were interview style for designers. I also really loved a podcast, Guy Raz’s How I Built This and originally, I wanted to do a How I Built This style interview for designers but instead of doing that, I thought because listen, there's a lot of interview style podcasts and interview style design podcasts. I would say a majority of them are interview style. However, this is not to disparage any of them because I think that they're each very good. And like you said, it's not a competition thing for me. I just thought that there was a gap there in, yes, the tactics are important and the tactical is important and the nuts and bolts of design and UX design and experience design are important but I wanted to bring out a lot more of the human element of these people I looked up to rather than just a design figure and how design impacts our life because I feel like a lot of the podcasts are, you know, “We're the designers making an impact” and I wanted to show it as the design has made the impact on our lives. Whether that's come across on every episode, I have no idea but I think the human element is definitely there. I love candor and I love honesty and transparency and vulnerability and that's what I wanted to accomplish. Now, the first few episodes were just people that I knew in my inner circle, especially where I work. Luckily for me, I work with some of the smartest ding-donging people I know. So, that was fun to interview them. And then from there it just snowballed into one of the guys I interviewed, Adam Polanski who here in Dallas Fort Worth is pretty well known and he knows a lot of folks and he likes that he knows a lot of folks. It's one of the things that he prides himself in having these connections and making connections for people. So, he gave me an exhaustive list and he said “You know, why don't you start here and here? I wouldn't shoot for like the top of the top because you've been doing this for like what two weeks. You want those people to say yes. So, start a little bit easier get with some closer friends of mine, some authors etc.” And I was like “Sweet, dude.” So, sort of the first biggerish type names I had that you could say that had some clout for them were Kevin M. Hoffman who wrote Meeting Design and Jorge Arango who wrote Living In Information. And then from there, I would email people and say “Hey, I had on author so-and-so and author so and so and I’d love to have you on and discuss” and it snowballed. And then on Instagram, I started seeing that design was really having a moment and I started asking the people that were climbing the ranks of the Instagram designers and influencers and I just messaged them and asked them and I got yeses and then I got more yeses and then I got Chris Doe who's like one of the most famous designers and he won an Emmy Award for a music video he did. And then I got Jared Spool. At the end of the season I’m doing Debbie Millman and I got …

 

Jayneil: Wow!

 

Tony: Michael Janda and I got Peter Smart who just blew me over. And I know I’m forgetting people in saying this but you just ask.

 

Jayneil: But then you got people like Chris Doe and Debbie Millman. They've already done this show so many times, I mean done the interviews. So, the two-part question is how do you convince them when you're just starting out, and I know you've got a huge following now, but at the same time they've already shared a lot of their vision along. So, how do you come up with new content to ask in the interview?

 

Tony: I think it goes back to what my why was and my original intent of what I felt was missing in some of the dialogues that I was hearing in podcasts. And I even start a lot of them … Say when I was talking to Jared Spool or even Chris Doe for that matter, I will say in the interview “Listen, you've done this a hundred times. You've answered all the questions. I’m going to try my damnedest to not ask those questions.” And so, it ends up being a lot more about philosophical type things rather than “What did it feel like to win an Emmy? Why did you start Center Center?” for Jared Spool. The truth of the matter is, yes, they've answered that a hundred but it's an easy question and also, who cares. After they've answered it once, I’d rather get some meat and potatoes rather than like “What is UX?” Who gives a crap what UX is? Go Google it for half a second. I don't want to talk to somebody for half an hour about it. 

 

Jayneil: So, it doesn't matter to you whether they've answered the same question a hundred times before. You're just getting your own spin on it.

 

Tony: No, I don't ask it. I try really hard not to ask the same stuff.

 

Jayneil: So, if you're interviewing Christ, Doe, you probably, I’m assuming, watched all these previous interviews so to make sure you don't ask the same question?

 

Tony: Well, I had been following him for a really long time. So, I had known what he had sort of been about like I wasn't about to ask him “How do you sell in a room with a client? How do you charge more?” because that's like his bread and butter, teaching people how to like level up and charge more for your design and the branding thing. So, I got a lot more personal with him and, man, we talked about some heavy stuff. And it was right around the time of those California fires that were happening. So, there was an emotional moment in there. It was nice. So, go check it out.

 

Jayneil: So, from start to finish, what does your process look like from the moment you reached out to Chris Doe, I’m assuming, in their Instagram and all the back and forth conversations, what happened there to the point where he came on the show?

 

Tony: Yeah, here's what's amazing about Chris Doe. I’m glad you asked that and my process in general. So, what it typically looks like is I will do a template message and I’ll customize it for each person. And wherever they're the most active, that's where I will reach out. If they're really active on LinkedIn, I’ll reach out there. If they're really active on Twitter, I’ll reach out there. If they're really active and having a moment on Instagram, I’ll reach out there in the DMs. And if I don't hear back within like a week, I will reach out on a different platform. And that is to say I’m not bothering them. That is to say I just want them to see the message. I’ll craft the message and I’ll say “Hey, I’m a huge fan. You inspire me. I have this podcast. Here are the numbers.” I used to not say the numbers because they weren't very impressive. So, I’d say “I’ve had on XYZ guest. I think my listeners would really get a lot of insight from you being on the show. I know I would. Let me know. Best, Tony.” And I’d go ahead and send the Calendly link to sign up because these are busy people where they have to respond and go “Okay, sure, I’ll do it. Do you have a link?” I just send the link with the question. So, they're clicking the link is them saying yes. Then they find a day that works and time that works. The funny thing about Chris Doe was that I messaged him, he didn't respond. He just clicked the link and picked a time.

 

Jayneil: Wow! 

 

Tony: And we had zero communication for a month. And then I start the Zoom call and he shows up. And that's what's so special about that episode is because nobody knows that backstory and yet the conversation that we had was one of my favorite of the show just because how present we both were, you know. There was no time for prep. There was no time for anything except “Well, I’m going to dial in to Zoom and I guess we'll see if he's here or not and I guess he's a man of his word. When he clicks something and says he'll be there, he'll be there.

 

Jayneil: Similar to you, what I do is I’m primarily very active on LinkedIn, so I usually have a wish list of people that I’ve been following or I want to interview and then I usually reach out to them first via LinkedIn because they can see that I’m connected to our similar connections if there are any or I might just send them an email. And usually, it's very customized like the first few parts like “I like this about you which is why I’m reaching out.” And then what I do is I kind of like describe to them what the interview format is like, how the setup is going to be like, what tools am I using to record this. I believe in the concept of through line. So, once I read up about them, I’ll write a script like what is the theme for this episode like for this episode, it's like, you know, let's provide a guide, a designer's guide to creating a podcast. And then I’ll think about all the questions I want to ask or write it down. I’ll send it to you so you can think about it. And then I will just send it to you and wait for a little bit back and forth to finally get you on the show. And my reasoning was that these people want to feel special which is why I kind of avoided sending Calendly link because I’m like “Wouldn't they be pissed off like “Oh, who's this guy just asking me to book a spot on his calendar?”” versus asking them like “Hey, when are you free?”

 

Tony: Yeah, I definitely hear what you're saying. Especially when you're first starting out, my advice would not be to just blast out a Calendly link to somebody like that but I also wouldn't go after those people right at the beginning either and not only because it'll be harder to get them but also because you don't know what you're doing. That is to say you can prep as much as you want and study up as much as you want on how to do a successful podcast but until you've done like a ton of interviews, you're kind of just winging it and you're learning as you go. And that's part of it. That's part of the process of “I’m new. I just want to get some people on, have the conversations and then listen.” At this point, I don't do outreach. I mean, I asked Debbie Millman but as far as the next like 13 people that I’m already booked to record with, they're all from PR firms reaching out. So, I just send a Calendly link and if something works out or not, it's whatever but it takes a time to get there. At the time of recording, I’m 70 something episodes in, I mean, that was not happening at episode 30. That's for sure. 

 

Jayneil: So, the date of this recording is May 16, 2020. So, as of right now, if you don't mind me asking, what are your stats on the podcast like the downloads and number of episodes and number of interviews you've done?

 

Tony: So, at time of recording, I am on episode … Hold on. I’m clicking around here. 70 but I have four in the canon that have been edited by my editor in South America, which I got him referred to me by Brandon Gross who is another podcaster and designer who is great. I had him on the show and I was on his show and he hooked me up with this guy who's in South America. And I send him a couple samples and he edits the show. And I tell you, it has saved me from burning out, quite frankly. I just send it to him after the interview is done and two days later, it shows up in my Dropbox edited.

 

Jayneil: Wow! And how much does he charge?

 

Tony: 8 dollars an hour.

 

Jayneil: No way. So, per episode, how much it's got costing you?

 

Tony: 16 bucks.

 

Jayneil: Damn! That is cheap.

 

Tony: Now, that is to say it sounds like the wages are not that great but there where he lives, it's a damn good living, you know. What's 16 times 4? So, 64 bucks for four hours in South America, that's pretty good.

 

Jayneil: Big deal.

 

Tony: Yeah. Anyway, so I will average per week and look, we've talked about all the guests that I’m getting in the design space that I have really found impactful and all this stuff, I don't even have that insane of numbers, okay? So, I will average anywhere between 1400 and 1900 plays in a week. So, in a month, it's about 6000 to 9000, in a month.

 

Jayneil: Wow! 

 

Tony: In 90 days, it's anywhere from 16 to 22. And I say that it's not a lot. To me, it's an insane amount like I don't even understand why or how people are listening but for advertising, that's nothing. You're not going to make any money with numbers like that. As far as countries go, I’m in 150 countries. This is all of May 16, 2020, by the way. And in 3800 cities on the globe. So, those are the current numbers for the podcast.

 

Jayneil: And I just forgot to ask you how do people find your podcast?

 

Tony: Just search “experience design” in your podcast player or go to XDPodcast.com or follow me @XDPodcast on Instagram. And I’ve got a great community there. It's awesome. I mean, the design community on Instagram is so awesome and inspiring and I’ve made like legit friends, these people I’ve never met in my life. I just had a Zoom call with a guy that I met on Instagram, a fellow designer and who lives in Hawaii and we just had a Zoom call yesterday just to chat. It's great.

 

Jayneil: So, you're editing all your podcast episodes on your own first and then you decide to hire a producer to edit it.

 

Tony: Yeah.

 

Jayneil: Why did you do that? Why did you not just choose to retain control of the editing process yourself?

 

Tony: Well, at first, I was doing a lot of music inside the episode. I’d bring in the music, I would change it when the tone changed, when the question changed. When there was an emotional response, I would add in like some emotional music. I mean, I was really producing the crap out of these things. And it was taking a lot of time. 

 

Jayneil: Four hours or more?

 

Tony: At least when I first started, for sure.

 

Jayneil: Wow!

 

Tony: And then I would create three pieces of content around it for marketing and for value ad for Instagram and social stuff like that. So, at least four hours, for sure. So, then I started doing some surveys on my Instagram stories about what people care about in podcasts and they don't care about any sort of music underneath when someone is talking. They're there for the content. And even you said that to me when we were having lunch. And you can't really hear a lot of times anyway or it's too loud and I was like “Well, forget it. It's out of here.” So, then that just meant that I have an intro, I have an outro, and I have to tell the person to cut out massive pregnant pauses that I like to take or ums or weird speech that happen. And then he was like “Cool! Got it.” I was getting burnt out because here I had a backlog of like 13 episodes or more that I had recorded and this was in … What is this? May? So, early March, I had about 12 episodes and I got burnt out. And it's funny because I had just done an episode with Ram Castillo about burnout because he got burnt out. So, I was burnt out and I had 12 episodes. And I think we were trying to sell our house and we were packing up to move and it was right before COVID and like all this stuff and I cancelled every single interview that I had booked for the next two months, obviously, luckily that I had that cannon there. And then I had the interview with Brandon Gross and he said “Here's this guy. You can't edit anymore, dude. You can't do that.” I was like “Dude, you're right.” So, I sent it to him. He edits all of them and I felt this huge weight being lifted to not have to worry about it because it is a ton of work. I was sitting there with 12 episodes that were not edited. So, I’d have to start on a Monday night. And some context here, I have two toddlers, they're both three years old, one of them is turning four in four days but I had two toddlers and we were trying to move and all this stuff like “I don't want to edit during the night, you know, don't want to do it. So, why not spend 16 bucks and have somebody else do it?” 

 

Jayneil: And then what does your tool stack look like? From start to finish, what is your mic setup or your equipment you're using and what is the software that's going on from this entire production that you're doing?

 

Tony: I started with a different setup and it served me well. I was using a condenser mic and I found that it was just picking up everything. And I have my room pretty well soundproofed and it was still picking up everything. Right now, you can't really hear it but it's pouring rain, I’ve got toddler screaming a couple rooms over, my fan is going and my AC is on.

 

Jayneil: I can't hear any of that.

 

Tony: And you can't hear because it's a dynamic mic. It's the Rode Podmic. And, actually, if you go to my website XDPodcast.com and click on my podcast gear, you will see my entire list. The Rode Podmic, I did a little review on that. I’m using the Rodecaster Pro and it's the priciest thing that I own as far as the podcasting gear goes. However, it's incredible. There are four outputs for mics. I don't use USB mics. I use mics that have XLRs. And then the audio interface which is this, it's like a mixer audio interface, it's crazy. So, I use that. I also have acoustic sound panels, foam boards. I got a ton of XLR mics. I Audio-Technica Monitor headphones. They range in price. Mine are like 50 bucks, they're like nothing, not nothing but they're not like the 500-dollar headphones. And then I’ve got a couple of the swivel mount Rode Boom arms that mount to the desk. There are cheap ones that people sell that are like 12 and they're literal crap. So, I upgraded to that. And then a nice little USB-C to USB adapter. I use Buzzsprout to host and create the RSS feed and all that stuff. I use zoom meetings to do all of the interviews as personable as I can make it. And I used to use GarageBand to edit. A lot of people don't use GarageBand. They use … Oh, what's the name of it?

 

Jayneil: Audition?

 

Tony: Yeah, Audition. There's one that's online in particular. I just used GarageBand because it was on my computer and it was free and I was like “Okay, cool.” And it worked out. 

 

Jayneil: So, I spent, I want to say, 500 dollars upfront cost. So, I’m wearing the Bose NC 700 noise-cancelling headphones. I think that cost me 400 bucks. And then I bought the 100-dollar, like you said, dynamic mic, the Samsung Q2U with a pop filter for another 100 bucks.  So, that's 500-buck upfront investment. And then software wise, my process is I record in SquadCast.fm. That cost me about 15 bucks a month. It captures double under audio from your side and my side and there's real time cloud backup. So, I did that because if any one of us drops, then I still have the interview. I did not want to use Anchor because I think when I was looking at Anchor it's free hosting and stuff but then it promotes itself a lot on your website. And also, if I’m doing it via the phone on Anchor and, you know, one of the call drops, then the audio is lost. That was like a no-brainer. And then for hosting, I use Simplecast just because, you know, it comes with a website builder too. So, my website and hosting are taken care of in one go. And then what I do is once I am done with the interview, I download the wav files and I pass it through this automated software called Auphonic which will pretty much do all the noise removal, the hum removal, and all these things. And then, after I pass it through Auphonic, I use a tool called Descript which converts the audio files into text files like transcribes them. And I’ve got the educational plan. I pay like 60 bucks a year for that. For Simplecast also I pay, I think, 240 dollars a year. So, the software cost, for me, is another 500 dollars a year. And then what I do in Descript, I edit out … So, let's say, I’m talking with you and there's a lot of ums and all these things, I try to like do it all manually and it takes me about three to four hours to edit each episode right now.

 

Tony: Oh, dude, stop it because I was in your shoes, you know, spending that much time. And you have to think about how much your time is worth and you have to think about how much you're spending on the editing software and then go “Huh?” or “I could spend 40 bucks a month and not even think about it and it's done.” That's worth 40 bucks to me. I spent three times then probably in freaking Starbucks.

 

Jayneil: But then the attention to detail, how would I convey that because right now when I’m working in the tool, I can remove as much as I want and stuff? Then how do I convey that to the podcast editor this is how I want it?

 

Tony: I had the same concern. I would just tell them what you like, taking out ums, ahs, things like that and give them examples of episodes of how you'd like it to be and then do a test run episode with them to see how they do it and then do another test run. All this is paid. Obviously, you pay them for it but then you kind of let go a little because I had the exact same concerns as you. And I don't know if you've listened to the past but ton of 12 episodes or whatever it was, at least 10, I haven't touched them. I have not touched the episode. And I would argue, if somebody's audio on the other side is crap, there's nothing you can do. There's no editing you can do that will save it sometimes. I’ve had that happen maybe three times. Yeah, I haven't edited an episode since January.

 

Jayneil: Wow, man.

 

Tony: I can give you his information if you want to.

 

Jayneil: Yeah, I think I’m probably going to take you up on it. I think my mental thing is that I’m trying to figure out at this point, Tony, is there's a lot of ways you can go about it. In my episodes what I do is, if you've listened, there's probably not a single uhm or “you know” like I even remove the filler words in there and my take on this is …

 

Tony: Don't do it. Stop it. Don't do it. Waste of your time. It's a waste of your time. Now, the big ones, of course, because, listen, that is exactly what I did and I was in your exact shoes when I first started because I wanted to have the control and I wanted to be meticulous and I wanted it to be perfect.

 

Jayneil: Yes, a labor of love.

 

Tony: And it's bullshit. It doesn't matter. Now, obviously, there are situations where it's like “Okay, that is major” or “That speech tick is really bothering me.” And I will mention that in the editing notes like “Hey, just make sure you get rid of this and this.” You'll notice that they did whatever but that right there, that uhm I just did was on purpose. There's no reason to get rid of that. 

 

Jayneil: Oh, I thought like the guest would want to sound like this perfect person and …

 

Tony: No, they're human beings. They're human beings.

 

Jayneil: Because that's been bugging me a lot because I would go in and try to listen to it and my thinking was “Listen, I need to come up with the show notes like, you know, at this timestamp, I’m talking about this thing.” So, I’m like “I have to listen to the episode anyways. So, might as well just go in and edit all those things out and make the guests sound really good.”

 

Tony: No, their voice, they are speaking about is what is their brand. They say uhm and they say ah. There's no reason to cut it all out.

 

Jayneil: Or the breathing noise. Well, they do that like “So, I was talking about it … ah” and I have to remove that part as well.

 

Tony: Uhm, uhm, that.

 

Jayneil: Yes. 

 

Tony: Okay. So, you're listening to it as an editor. You're listening to it as the person creating the content. So, your ear is hearing things that a lot of people won't be hearing. That is still to say some of it will be annoying and you'll need to edit it out but overall, if I were to say “Uh … Yeah, that's the thing to do,” that I would keep in like why would you cut out because all we have in this right now is our voice. So, if there are things like, I don't know, a long deep breath like that, that says something, it visualizes something where originally, I would have cut that crap out immediately.

 

Jayneil: Yeah. I think a listener that I was asking were doing some user research about my own podcast and she said specifically that “You know, when you cut all these things out, I’m wondering what was said that you cut out. And you're not vulnerable.” And I was kind of thinking about it.

 

Tony: I did the exact same thing. It's not real, it's not real. And if you go back and listen to some of my earlier episodes, they're so manufactured and overproduced. 

 

Jayneil: So, I’m in right now. 

 

Tony: It's overproduced. It's like a pop song where I’d rather just have somebody sit down at the piano and riff on the mic just like … Would you rather listen to a manufactured produced pop song or a live performance with just somebody with a guitar and a drummer?

 

Jayneil: I prefer the live one, at least.

 

Tony: Of course, there are annoying things that happen. You don't want dogs barking and things that will interrupt the conversation or if there is an audible tick or habit they have, that's really distracting like actually distracting and non-human which does happen, edit it out but otherwise … because I looked at other podcasts that were going on and having the same success as I was, started about the same time, one of them like my friend Brandon Gross. His podcast with Ryan Warrender is called Design Huddle and they're in interview style. Sometimes both of them are there. Sometimes one of them and they talk to guests or they do a dialogue themselves. And it's completely raw. They hardly edit it at all. Their numbers are the exact same as mine.

 

Jayneil: Wow! Somehow, I was thinking that my unique selling point or the differentiator was going to be that Jayneil overproduces this podcast, everything's perfect. So, in my head, I was like “That's what I got to do.” 

 

Tony: Well, I don't blame you for feeling that way. That's exactly how I felt and maybe that gets some people to listen at the beginning because it's different than the rest but you will get burnt out before you know it because it is the exact same thought that I had when I started.

 

Jayneil: And I’m already feeling it. And it's like I enjoy the interviewing part of it but this editing, it's like, oh my God!

 

Tony: How many have you done?

 

Jayneil: I think I’ve done so far 14, including yours now.

 

Tony: That sounds about right. At like 12 or 14, I was like “All right I’m … This is a lot. Talking to people is chill but everything after that, it's a pain in the ass.”

 

Jayneil: Now, if I send it to, like in the Dropbox, the file to the podcast producer, this guy you're going to connect me with, is he also going to create the show notes or would I have to still listen to the whole episode again to create the show notes or like “Hey, this is what we talked about” because usually … 

 

Tony: Let me get [inaudible] real quick. Do you read show notes whenever you listen to a podcast? How many podcasts do you listen to?

 

Jayneil: I listen to a couple of podcasts in the startup space and some design space and I usually just glance at the title and I just start playing it.

 

Tony: Do you ever read the show notes?

 

Jayneil: Very rarely.

 

Tony: So, how much time are you spending on the show notes now and time stamping and all that?

 

Jayneil: A lot because I’m manually editing and I’m putting in like, you know, “5 minutes 35 seconds: Asking Tony Daussat about this” like I’ll do all those things.

 

Tony: So, now I would ask you why?

 

Jayneil: Damn!

 

Tony: Dude, I wrote together my show notes five minutes before I hit publish.

 

Jayneil: Wow! 

 

Tony: For the exact reason you just said. 

 

Jayneil: And then I was listening to this guy Shane Parish, the Knowledge Project Podcast, and he would say like “On this episode, we talk about these things.” So, I thought I had to listen to the whole episode, create the show note so I can tell my listeners what are we exactly talking about in the show.

 

Tony: No, there's no point. I do a tiny bio of who they are and like a couple of themes we talk about and then I hit them with “Find this person on LinkedIn. Here's a website and here's my links.” The only reason you're going to open show notes is to hit a link.

 

Jayneil: My mind is completely blown right now, Tony. It's like … This is happening right now to me.

 

Tony: Yeah. Wow! 

 

Jayneil: You said that with some of the guests, the audio quality was really bad from their side and there was a lot of noise. So, what did you end up doing in that case? Did you end up producing that episode or just telling the guests that “Hey, it's just too bad.”

 

Tony: Well, it was at a time when I wasn't booking too many in advance or recording too many in advance. I know one of the things that I told you to do is just record as many up front as you could. I wasn't doing that. So, I had to publish it. And you try to do Auphonic or whatever. You try to do things like that to make a little bit better. And I published my talk that I gave at Big Design. That audio was just terrible. I mean, just terrible because I didn't record it right but I put it up there anyway because I didn't have any other content and I wanted to remain consistent. So, yeah, I just did it. I mean, now, I probably wouldn't if it was unsavable but it's pretty fine. Listen, also, the editor, he levels up the audio too because I remember I was talking to one guest and it just sounded like not even a good quality Zoom call. And then I went and listened to the edited version, I was like “Oh, okay. You gave that a little boost. I got you.” Let me just put it this way. There's no reason to put in the time that you're putting into it right now, especially because it's not like you want to make this thing like part of NPR. You want to just add value to people's lives, in your life through doing the podcasts. So, if you're already starting to feel like you might be getting burnt out, you're already burnt out. That's what Ram Castillo told me as well and it immediately hit me because I said “I don't know, I feel like I might start feeling burnout” and he's like “Dude, then that means you're already burnt out. You're already in it.”

 

Jayneil: Wow! And I’m already starting to feel that. And to your point about what I ended up doing in my case was I took your advice and I reached out to a bunch of people and I’m like “Oh, before I launch, you know, my podcast, I got to have, you know, 10 episodes done and recorded.” And it was the stupidest thing I could do. So, the first guest I reached out to was Brian Sullivan and the audio just was not working out that time, there were technical difficulties. So, we kind of postponed that. And the second guess I reached out to was Stephen Gates. And this is embarrassing, man, to just talk about this but I screwed that one up big time because he came on the show and he did me a huge favor by just coming on the show and I just was winging it. I really did not know how you do a podcast and stuff. So, I kind of asked him questions and we got through it and somebody of his caliber kind of just takes you along for the ride and he's really good to talk to but at the end of the show, I asked him feedback and he said that this is good but he's like “I did not know what your theme was.” And at that point, my name for the podcast was ‘99% Effort’ and he's like “What is your theme? Where are you guiding me?” He's like “You're the Sherpa.” And I still haven't like gone in and tried to produce that podcast. I probably need to do it just because. So, that was like one thing that I learned from that to create a theme. And then you had told me that “Jayneil, the motivational market or the space is super saturated and competitive but if you go in on the design side of things, then there's a really like growing market.” So, then I changed the name from ‘99% Effort’ to the ‘design MBA’. And thanks to you, I personally found it to be very valuable but, yeah, that was my first screwup and then I changed the name.

 

Tony: Well, see, that's the problem. Look, you're going to go through trials and tribulations of the podcast, I still do today, but I didn't reach out to Stephen Gates until I had, you know … What was he? Episode 50 something. Stephen Gates. That's funny. No, he's a great guest. I’m sure the episode's … I’m sure it's great. I mean, he's amazing to listen to. He could probably steer a conversation into insights without anybody asking any relevant questions. I would listen to it again and see unbiased if there's something to salvage there because he's the man.

 

Jayneil: Man, just talking to you is this like UX therapy or podcast therapy, just hearing you.

 

Tony: At the end of my talk at Big Design last year, 2019, I was doing Q&A and my talk was kind of short but my Q&A was like 20 minutes long and it ran a little bit long and we had to wrap that thing up but afterward, he came up to me and he's like “Wow! Dude, that was like a therapy session out there. That was a really interesting Q&A.” It's like I just try to keep it real. That's all. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's why I started, if I had to put it in a nutshell, was that it the design podcasts just felt too buttoned up and too stuffy and taking themselves a little too seriously maybe. Maybe that's part of it. You see um right there. I would keep that. 

 

Jayneil: My honest goal for starting the podcast was … if there's one thing that I really believe in myself or trust myself is networking. And even before the podcast for I want to say 10 years, I’ve just been reaching out to people via email or other social media platforms and connecting with them and learning from them. That is what I get out of it more than the other things that might even come. So, before if I had to reach out to somebody from InVision, it would be like “Hey, just get on a call with me and talk to me about this thing that you're doing.” And it did work, cold emailing and stuff, but it took a lot of time but now the thing is I have a value proposition to add by saying that “Hey, I’m going to share your knowledge just not with myself but also with the world.” So, the podcast thing became a perfect platform for me to just reach out to these people and kind of do a Tim Ferriss like show but just for designers, if I may. So, that is what drives me. And then my goal is to release 101 episodes. And until then, I’m not going to stop. I mean, whatever difficulties come, I want to overcome that and maybe then I can look at what's working, what's not working. This is really embarrassing but I think I’ve gotten out right now maybe 309 downloads as of this recording. So, it's nowhere near your level but it's just exciting for me to look at that and like “Hey, you know what, before this, I hadn't even started this and now I’m doing this.” 

 

Tony: And you have what? Three episodes?

 

Jayneil: Yeah, one trailer and then two actual interviews. 

 

Tony: So, they're what? A hundred each? Probably 150 and like split up the rest. That's not bad for three episodes at all.

 

Jayneil: Okay.

 

Tony: Yeah. I mean, I don't think you're doing all you can to market it but it depends on what your goals are. 

 

Jayneil: My goals … I know you've got an Instagram page. 

 

Tony: What's that 101 for? Is that just an arbitrary 101 dalmatian sort of thing you got going on?

 

Jayneil: So, I did my engineering from college in India. And there everybody got this student ID number. That was your roll call like they identified you in the system with that number. So, mine was 101. So, it's just like stuck with me and I’m like “Why not 101?” Also, when I negotiate for salary, so if somebody's like “How much you want?”, instead of saying like “I want 100,000,” I’ll say “I want 103101.” And they're like “That's a really weird ass number to come up with.” And partly it's because it's my roll call but also because people think you really thought about it like it's a very unique number.

 

Tony: Like when you're selling a house, you don't ask for 300. You ask for 298,732.

 

Jayneil: Yeah, that's the exactly logic.

 

Tony: Seriously, Jay, if you're going to make it to 101, you have to automate it some, especially if you're already starting to feel a little bit burnt out because you're not going to make it to 101. It's totally cool. Either you have to let somebody else do it and pay them or realize that perfect doesn't exist and people don't care about that stuff. They just want to hear the content.

 

Jayneil: Another one of my pet peeves was when we were talking like I said “Oh yeah” and then I said it the same time where you were saying it and we kind of like overlapped. I would even try to cut that out like I would position it …

 

Tony: Wow!

 

Jayneil: See? This one I would cut out because there's two people talking and I’m like “Oh, let’s go hear only one person talking at a time.” 

 

Tony: Look, if it happens a lot, I’d probably rethink my interview skills but if it happens like two times throughout the course of an hour and an hour and a half, that's how human beings talk. It's what happens. You're not making this for like design robots to listen to.

 

Jayneil: I would even remove the laughter part of it because I was like …

 

Tony: Oh no, you wouldn't, Jay.  You would take out the laughter, the most amazing sound in the world?

 

Jayneil: When you're speaking, I put myself on mute. I know you do it two at times but it was just like I was so obsessed with all these things, man. Oh my God!

 

Tony: I used to be too. I’m telling you I was in the exact same … I would meticulously edit the episodes, meticulous. And then I was like “Why the hell am I doing this?” So, I stopped.

 

Jayneil: This, honestly, with you has been the most open conversation I’ve had. I know I sent you a list of questions that I want to walk through and right now I’m recording this and then I’m also keeping an eye on the questions to ask in this. And I remember you told me that you just invite the guest and then you wing it. So, I think something I’m trying to wrap my head around, Tony, is how do you just wing it? Why not prepare a list of questions. 

 

Tony: I only prepare a list of questions if they ask for them. Now, there are certain caveats to this. When I first started, it was very different. I had like two pages of questions. And I have a background in acting in an improv and I was an improvisational acting teacher at one point. So, I might be more well equipped to wing things than someone who's just starting out podcasting and never took like an improv class or something. That is to say I do spend about 20 minutes before each interview and person I have on and go over their LinkedIn, blog posts, videos, other clips, etc. and jot down some themes and notes. And I do typically copy and paste from their LinkedIn bio and that's what I read to introduce them live. Beyond that, I don't really do more research. I used to do more. And it depends on how well I already know the person and know their work. If it was someone like Chris Doe or Stephen Gates or Michael Janda, etc., I would do a little bit more research, again, Jared Spool, because I didn't want to talk about the stuff that had already been talked about but that's another thing, that's just my style of podcast. It doesn't have to be everybody's style of podcast. That's just something that I found was a little void in current design interview podcasts was that let's just have a dialogue. And I’ve got some themes jotted down and I watch the clock and I steer the conversation when I need to steer the conversation and I pivot when I need to pivot. That did not happen for a long time. And I haven't been doing it for that long. I mean, 70 episodes as of date of recording. And I’m not an expert on it. I’m still learning but that's the most I do. If they ask for questions, I hate it because I don't want them to think about their answer, I don't want them to write down their answers. And there have been a lot of times when, because I do video as well, you can see them reading it.

 

Jayneil: Oh my God!

 

Tony: So, I usually say “I either will or will not ask some of these questions or cover some of these themes” and that's the email that I send if they ask for it. I’ve found some of the guests that I’m targeting, that I’m reaching out to, a lot of them have not done a lot of these interviews. So, in those cases, I found that just giving them like the feedback I got from a lot of guys, they're like “Hey, just …” You know, it kind of helped me to think about what I was going to say and sound more.

 

Tony: For sure. That's totally fair. 

 

Jayneil: And also, I haven't taken an improv class. 

 

Tony: I mean, I studied improv for years and I taught improv acting. So, perhaps I just have something in me that has been taught or learned because acting is all about listening and reacting. It's not about manufacturing something. So, you'll say something, I will listen, I will take it in and I will react. In so many interview styles, they'll go question to question and the guest answers and the next question, they don't even mention, they answer or respond to the answer. 

 

Jayneil: I’m guilty of that.

 

Tony: So, I’ll say “So, Jayneil, where are you from originally?”

 

Jayneil: India.

 

Tony: “How much did you make in your first design job?”

 

Jayneil: 60,000 dollars.

 

Tony: “What's your dog's name?” There's no link to it. So, the first question “Where are you from?” – “India.” – “India? Oh, how interesting. I’ve actually never been overseas. What brought you here? How did you get here?” – “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Then we get to your career “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” – “Oh, where did you start?” “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” – “How much did you make when you first started?”

 

Jayneil: I see your point now. 

 

Tony: So, they've got two questions they want answered but there's nothing to tie it together. Now, listen, a lot of times, I’ll say “I’m going to pivot” and I’ll totally pivot the conversation but I’ll never just drop off something without at least reacting – listen, react, listen, react, pivot.

 

Jayneil: Because as I’m talking with you, I asked you a bunch of questions and then I think there was a point where I did not even react and I’m like “So, how did you do this thing?” And in my mind, it's like “Well, I’ve got all these questions I got to ask Tony” and kind of like go through that.

 

Tony: Listen, there's nothing wrong with it. I just think people value a movement in a dialogue more than a Q&A session, at least for my format, for my podcast. Obviously, I ask questions like that's what interviews are but when there's too much structure to it, again, for my format and for how I wanted to do my show, that's just how I did it.

 

Jayneil : Somebody that really inspired me in terms of interviewing that I hope to get to that is Larry King, how he just listens a lot, makes himself invisible. And even during my episodes, I try … I mean, this one I’m really opened up but usually, when I go in the Q&A mode, I try to keep my part out of it a little bit. I mean, I’ll share some interesting anecdotes but at the same point, my goal is to kind of make the guest shine.

 

Tony: Oh yeah, just shut up and listen is what they said.

 

Jayneil: Yes.

 

Tony: That's a huge thing. There are times when I find that I will respond to something they've said or I will say an anecdote or something and it took about a minute to say and inside, I go “Ooh, God, I just took a whole minute. Nobody wants to hear me.” Listen, it's fine. Nobody is listening going “Oh, just shut up and let Tony talk.” 

 

Jayneil: You're really comfortable with the silence. I notice as soon as you are done giving an answer or you ask a question, there's this pause. It kind of gives a sign that “Okay, do I come in?” So, how do you monitor that? Do you let the guest end their train of thought and then wait for a couple of seconds and then answer or you just make this awkward silence a part of your interview style?

 

Tony: Interesting question and observation. That throat clear, you may edit out. You may keep. And me talking about the throat clear, you may edit out, you may keep. So, it's an interesting question. I think that there's a lot of power in silence. And even when you're working with clients and doing presentations, what do they tell you? They say “Say your price or show the design and shut up and let them respond.” Sometimes, you will speak over someone but that's why I also do video as part of mine so I can see the person and it's a lot easier to tell when they have said their piece for an answer rather than no video where you can't see that physical language, you can only hear their spoken language. So, that helps me a tremendous amount when I feel like they have actually completed their thought to whatever extent they wanted to. As far as the way that I talk, I really do try my best to avoid uhms and uhs and you-knows and likes. I still do it a lot. However, I like to choose my words wisely. Even though I don't always say the most wise words, I still like to consider what I’m saying. Some people, they can just talk and talk. For example, Chris Doe, I had on Chris Doe. The guy would talk slowly sort of like this, not take too many pauses but he was talking slowly and intentionally and it was all freaking golden nuggets dropping out of his mouth. I don't quite have that skill yet but I do like to take pauses and consider the things I’m going to say a little bit even if it's not perfect, even if it's not exactly what would be the most impactful thing but I like to have some intentionality instead of rambling or saying too many uhms and uhs and getting in rabbit holes.

 

Jayneil: And that's more work for the podcast editor.

 

Tony: Right. Now, truth be told, it all still happens all the time. It's something that I will continue to always work on. And it helps doing that because I am such a client-facing position where I work. It really helps trying to be intentional about what I’m going to say in the moment. And if I have to take a pause, then I will take a pause. That's how I roll my jams. That's how I roll my croissants. 

 

Jayneil: I am going to take your advice and embrace the power of silence. What are your future goals to monetize the podcast or have you thought about those things?

 

Tony: Okay. Well, I have the course HiredUX.com, all about getting hired as a UX designer. I have Patreon which I don't really advertise. I’m selling these enamel pins which are ‘UX loves U’ pins. You can get that in UXLovesU.com but beyond that, look, this is … I’m struggling right now, Jay. This is premature but we're going to do a hot take right here right now. So, it's May 16, 2020. Okay, I wasn't going to get into this but I’m going to get into this. In August of this year 2020, I will be sunsetting the Experience Design Podcast. Now, what is next? There are one of two things that it will evolve into. I can't get into the specifics yet but it's not a goodbye, let's just say that, okay? So, that's as far as I can go with that little nugget, I’m dropping but the Experience Design Podcast is going to sunset in August. Out of the ashes, if you will, a phoenix will erupt. So, there will be an evolution. So, I’m not leaving the podcasting space potentially altogether. There's something potentially in the works right now. If that doesn't pan out, then I will be sunsetting the Experience Design Podcast in August either way, whether this thing pans out or not. And I just want it to be completely transparent even though it is premature to give an exacting answer. The monetization side of it, right now, I’m not thinking of anymore. I would love to obviously make a little bit of money doing the course so it pays for itself, the hosting, because the hosting of course is actually kind of expensive on Thinkific. I know I’m not going to make a lot of money with the course. I wanted to create a course that I wish I had when I was trying to find a job as a UX designer with no portfolio and no résumé and no design degree. That's why I made HiredUX.com. So, I know that's a big piece of news I just dropped on you, Jayneil. 

 

Jayneil: I am completely shocked, man. I thought you're going to continue going on. Wow! 

 

Tony: And that's the thing. At that point, I will be 80 something episodes in, whatever 13 weeks from now is, 80 something episodes. Now, the thing is, the reason is I know, Jay, if I kept doing it would get pretty big just because of the trajectory it has now and the types of guests that are reaching out to be on. And I feel like I have a halfway decent show that has the room to grow even more. However, I don't want my spare time to be working. I have always had a side hustle thing and I’m ready to not have a side thing. I’m ready to just do the job I do, kill it from 9 to 4 or 8 to 4, 9 to 5, whatever it is, come home and be present with my family. The editor helped a lot but I still feel like I’m spending four hours a week which is what, 16 hours a month in something side hustle related, at least 16 hours a month, and I don't want to do it anymore. Will that change? At some point, maybe but my kids are growing up really fast and I don't want to be tucked away in my studio on a Sunday or a Saturday or a Friday night or after they go to bed. I’d rather just chill with my wife and dogs after my kids go to bed. And I’ve gotten out of the podcast all I wanted to get out of it. And it may sound selfish and, listen again, no one has heard this except you and the 300 people that have downloaded your episodes so far but people will miss it. I have fans. I’ve never thought I would have fans before. The compliments I’ve received from people that I respect in this industry more than like bucket list type people to have on the show, I never thought I would receive before. So, it's really helped my confidence in ways. It's helped my networking in ways. I used to be a terrible networker. I’ve gained a lot of knowledge about this space, about Marketing, about just conversations, how to grow an Instagram, for that matter.

 

Jayneil: 14,000 fans on Instagram.

 

Tony: At time of recording, 15.2.

 

Jayneil: Wow!

 

Tony: But it doesn't mean anything. I have 15,000 people on Instagram following me. How many would be really tragically upset if I never posted another piece of content on my Instagram feed? A hundred? A thousand? Maybe.

 

Jayneil: Yeah, it's not going to be all 10,000. 

 

Tony: Maybe a hundred people would be really upset if I never posted again. Those are like the true fans. And I’m not going to stop posting Instagram. I’m just going to change the handle and keep it and just post when I want to post and not think about “How do I grow this? How do I make my Instagram bigger and grow this?” and stuff. I’m just going to post insights when I want to post them. And people, I feel like they will understand. It's not like I’m The Beatles breaking up or like Radiohead breaking up, which I don't think that they have broken up. It's not like I’m some celebrity. Out of the big numbers we've talked about, I’ll have a very small subset of people that are really upset that the podcast is done but that is to say something else may be cooking and if it cooks, great; if it doesn't cook, okay.

 

Jayneil: Man, I’m just speechless because you are the beacon that got me started into this and I just want to keep following you.

 

Tony: No but your intentions were different than mine …

 

Jayneil: Correct.

 

Tony: … when you first started. Because with your podcast, it's very like altruistic in that you just want to inspire people and you want to be inspired and have conversations etc., etc. From day one, I was thinking of monetization.

 

Jayneil: Oh, I see.

 

Tony: Obviously, I wanted to have these conversations and help people and help myself and my networking and trying to be better at conversations and all the things that you said but I thought about monetization very early on as being a thing that needed to happen, especially because it was taking away my free time. So, I thought “If I’m going to do something that takes away my free time, I need to make money doing it.” Now, the things that I have gained personally and professionally are worth more than money. The invitation to go speak at How Design Live this year, which was postponed because of COVID-19, like being a guest lecturer two or three times here in Dallas in the future, you invited me to help teach at SMU, being invited to different talks and it has leveled up my career in ways I really didn't think would happen. So, I’ve gotten everything I’ve wanted and didn't know what happened out of it. So, now I have to reevaluate where I’m spending my free time and what I am making most important in my life. My CEO Calvin Carter, a man of whom I respect more than any CEO I’ve ever worked for or probably ever will because they will have to take me out of there kicking and screaming, that's how great he is, I’m so committed to Bottle Rocket and to this man. So, one of the things that he says is “The most important thing is to make the most important thing the most important. Thing.” I will say that again because it's a bit of a head scratcher – “The most important thing is to make the most important thing the most important thing.” And it was fair for me to make the podcast the most important thing for a substantial amount of time because it really helped me, helped my career and has helped thousands of people but now, it's not the most important thing anymore. And not to say that my family was never not that. They've always been the most important thing in my life and always will be but have I always made it completely the most important thing fully? I mean, yes, obviously my family is always one but that is to say that I would spend six hours on a Saturday doing a podcast interview or four interviews and I had just worked 40 hours during the week. I’m like “What did I miss out on just to move my career forward in a side hustle?”

 

Jayneil: That is still not paying 100% as you would like to.

 

Tony: Yeah. And at that point, I wasn't making anything doing it. Now, I don't regret any podcasting decision I have made because, again, it really has elevated my brand especially in DFW, Dallas Fort Worth, but now kind of across the globe. Now, I don't suspect you could just walk into a conference or meet up and drop my name and somebody knows it out in Australia but there's a few hundred people that would. And it baffles me that in 150 countries, people listen to me every single week. It baffles my mind. I don't understand it. And to be invited to speak at How Design Live by Stephen Gates, the man of which I found the inspiration to start the podcast and wanted to model my career after, it served its purpose, I would say, after all that.

 

Jayneil: Very few people actually take the time to evaluate what's important in their life and listening to you candidly just share that … I think, a lot of times you just get caught up in that hustle “Why am I doing this?” And to your point, for me, from day one, monetization was not a priority for me because this I do it anyways like even in my free time I’m hitting up people on LinkedIn and email and just because, I don't know, I’m just a curious person like that. So, that's the reason that kept me going but thinking about like “Hey, what is important in my life?” and, for you, spending time with the kids, the family and then you're spending on Saturday 6 hours just editing the podcast and it's like “Oh my God!” So, I think not a lot of people do that. They just chase. They're in that rat race and they keep going and keep going. And then, at one point, they're like “Holy shit! Where did my time go?” So, I’m just really humbled to hear that you are willing to admit that “Hey, you know what, I’m stopping this because it just doesn't make sense for me anymore” and it's just as a call for me to evaluate certain things in my life as well like what is important to me as well.

 

What advice would you have for designers who are now looking to start their own podcast? What would you tell them?

 

Tony: The advice that I would give someone who is wanting to start a design podcast or any podcast for that matter would depend on their level of commitment and their goals for why they want to do it. My answer would heavily depend on that because if you're just doing it for funsies and you're not going to do it for at least a year, don't do it, because there are already so many, you're hurting other podcasters that are very intentional about wanting to do this thing, that it's just taking up space. Now, you can have the intention of wanting to do it for a year and you decide halfway through you don't want to. Fine, that's completely normal and I could see that that is a very realistic thing but if you're going into it going “I don't know, I just kind of want to try it and like see what happens,” you're not going to get listeners, you're not going to get anybody involved, you're not going to add value, you're going to get bored of doing it, your schedule's going to mix in, you're going to stop. Just stop. Just don't do it. Find another hobby. That sounds like a negative potentially. I don't mean for it to be. I mean for it to be a call to action for intentionality. And you can pick up different hobbies and things like that, of course. And I’m not saying don't ever podcast but do some trial runs, record six different interviews or monologues before you publish. If you find you have really enjoyed it and can see yourself doing it for at least a season of episodes, then sure, go for it but if you don't want to and you're just like winging it like “Ah, maybe I’ll. I’m just recording on my phone,” that's one thing that really bugs the crap out of me. All of these podcasts gurus or people that have courses on how to create a podcast “You know what, just start. Just do it. Just get your phone and record on your phone. Just put it in the RSS,” I think is completely horrible advice.

 

Jayneil: It is.

 

Tony: All it's doing is clogging up the shit, the wavelengths with stuff that nobody wants to listen to. Get yourself a good mic if you're going to do this thing. And for the love of God, people, stop buying the Blue Yeti. Stop it. It's 130 bucks USB plug and play mic and it's a piece of crap. Stop buying it. You can get a Rode Podmic which is what I use and a cheap little audio interface with a USB and you're just as good and you'll be paying the exact same amount as a condenser Blue Yeti and the audio difference is astronomically different. Anyway, I feel like I’ve just destroyed some dreams.

 

Jayneil: But it's honest advice, man, just talking with you. I’d rather talk with someone who is realistic, optimistic too but just pragmatic about the reality of this thing. I’d rather you tell me that “Jayneil, you're not going to make, you know, 100,000 dollars or 200,000 dollars in revenue from this” and clear up any kind of like fantasy land I’ve got going on in my head and just be real because you've been in the trenches. So, I really appreciate from that and more than anything, I’ve gotten so many takeaways just talking with you, especially around trying to get that podcast editor and not trying to edit everything myself.

 

Tony: Yeah, for real. 

 

Jayneil: I just want to say thank you so much, Tony, for coming on the show. Thank you.

 

Tony: It is my absolute pleasure and I’m flattered that you had me and you're a real gentleman and a good friend and you inspire so many. So, thank you for having me.

 

Jayneil: Thank you. 

 

If you made it this far, you are what I call a design MBA super fan. And I’ve got a gift for you, my super fan. Head over to designMBA.show where you will find my email address. Email me one thing you learned from this podcast episode and I will get on a 30-minute call with you and help you in your career goals.

 

See you in the next episode.