My guest today is Saptarshi Prakash who is a senior Product Design Manager at Swiggy. In this episode, we discuss the following: - Saptarshi Prakash's first exposure to design world - How Saptarshi Prakash cleared IIT-JEE - Benefits of going to IIT - What Saptarshi Prakash learned from engineering - Why Saptarshi Prakash joined a multinational company after graduation - How Saptarshi Prakash landed his first design job without a design portfolio/certification - How Saptarshi Prakash leveraged his engineering background to ace the design challenge - Why Saptarshi Prakash didn't negotiate the salary for his first design job - How Saptarshi Prakash dealt with imposter syndrome - Asking for feedback from experienced designers to improve your craft - How Saptarshi Prakash landed a dream job at Swiggy - Why Saptarshi Prakash started his YouTube channel - How Saptarshi Prakash juggles both his day job and the YouTube channel - Saptarshi Prakash's approach to making YouTube videos - How does Saptarshi Prakash deal with folks who are jealous of his online brand - Saptarshi Prakash's advice for breaking into design - How to get in touch with Saptarshi Prakash For show notes, guest bio, and more, please visit: www.designmba.show Level Up Your Design Career (Free Email Course): https://levelup.designmba.show/
Saptarshi Prakash aka "Sapta" is an engineer from the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology Madras. He chose Digital Experience Designing as his profession because problem-solving can go well beyond the limits of engineering. As a professional, he has worked with some of the well known startups of India like Housing.com, Zeta and many other big and small names around the world. Currently, he oversees consumer design at Swiggy, India’s largest food ordering and delivery platform. Sapta has given 50+ UX talks/workshops at various places including big names like Amazon, Grab, Shopee, Practo, IDC IIT Bombay, IIT Guwahati, NID Bangalore etc.
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Namaste and welcome. This is Jayneil Dalal and you are listening to the design MBA. This podcast is a real-life MBA program for designers where we interview design hustlers and learn the skills, mindset necessary for a designer to launch a business venture. You can learn more. Find past episodes and stay updated at designMBA.show.
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Jayneil Dalal: Today, I’ve got an amazing guest with me, Saptarshi Prakash or as friends and people around him fondly call him Sapta. Sapta loves solving problems, right? He went to the MIT of India which is also called Indian Institute of Technology Madras but he chose Digital Experience Design because, once again, he loves problem solving. As a professional, he's worked with some of the well-known startups in India like Housing.com, Zetta and many other big names. He's currently seeing Consumer Design at Swiggy which is India's largest food ordering and delivery platform. He has also delivered 50+ UX talks and workshops in various places including Amazon, Grab, Shopee, IIT Bombay, IIT Guwahati, NIT Bangalore, etc. When he's not designing, he is completely lost on drafting his next design talk or traveling to some far-off country.
So, without further ado, Sapta, welcome to the show, man. Super excited to have you here.
Saptarshi Prakash: Thank you, Jayneil. Thanks for inviting me. I think what you're doing is an awesome stuff and I feel honored to be a part of this. Thanks for inviting me once again.
Jayneil: Absolutely, man. I’m kind of curious what was your journey growing up? Did you always wanted to do design or were you like just following the traditional route in India like become an engineer or doctor?
Saptarshi: No, I don't think I ever thought that I would be a designer, if you ask, in my school days, not at all. I loved computers. So, I thought that I need to do something with the computer. So, the obvious option was to maybe be a software engineer or an engineer, any kind of engineer. You would want to build stuff, right? Then your parents would be like “If you want to build a computer or if you want to do stuff with the computer, you need to be an engineer.” That's how I was naturally trained, not that anyone forced me to but school days, when I was in high school, that's exactly when I started designing in a way. So, I think I was in 7th or 8th standard, don't quite remember. So, that's when I got my first personal computer at home. So, the parents bought me and it came with a printer and it came with Adobe Photoshop installed. So, we’re not getting to the details of that but, yes, Adobe Photoshop was pre-installed. So, I wanted to learn to make greeting cards for my friends and relatives. I had a printer. So, I needed to show off that “Hey, I can make these digital cards for you.” So, somebody told me that Photoshop is the tool to do. So, I started exploring. I didn't have internet back then that I would check some tutorials or something. It was all trial and error. So, I would open Photoshop, start playing around with different tools, start editing photos, change the color of my T-shirts or the hairstyle and that's it. That's how I ventured into design and it ended there. Nothing more. Then after my 10th standard, I moved to a different city for this IET coaching and all. We have this thing here in India.
Jayneil: You went to Kota?
Saptarshi: I didn't go to Kota. So, I came to Hyderabad, I joined FITJEE there. I stayed in a hostel, of course. So, in those two years, that is 11th and 12th, I was completely cut off from everything including the stuff that I used to do with Photoshop and my computer. It was all academics but then when I got into IIT, there I saw that …
Jayneil: Sorry to interrupt. So, you said you moved. Which city did you move to?
Saptarshi: Hyderabad.
Jayneil: Oh, Hyderabad, okay. I mean, for two years you're planning for IIT. It’s one of the most competitive exams in the world, the IIT-JEE. I remember my tuition teacher telling me something like <
Saptarshi: There's a lot of luck factor in it because everyone puts effort and everyone is fairly intelligent to appear for it but then what happens on those six hours, it used to be six hours back then, in our time like two papers, so what happens during those six hours, you never know. So, I have seen a lot of people who were seemingly better than me when we were in the classes and all but they couldn't make it and then there were people who were not as good as me, made it in a better way than me. So, you can't really say what happens on the final day. So, there's a bit of luck factor as well but I don't think there's anything extraordinary about it. Your concepts need to be very clear. I think, that's the point of IIT-JEE exam. That's what differentiates it from the other competitive exams at least out here in India. So, you need to get to the core of the problem like they say, right? Only then you'll be able to solve. So, none of the questions that they ask are apply a formula and you get the answer. None of the questions are like that.
Jayneil: So, what was your All India Rank or the AIR as they say it? Do you remember?
Saptarshi: I think it was around 1800 something, if I’m not mistaken.
Jayneil: Wow! So, when you got into IIT Madras and it was just like one of the top sought-after IITs, how did your perception change? Because it's almost like if somebody gets into MIT, I mean, they must feel similarly how you got into IIT like “Okay, maybe I’m a genius. I’ve got this.” Did it get to your head? How did you deal with that?
Saptarshi: Not at all, not at all because, honestly, I would hope to be a genius someday but certainly haven't been one yet. So, I think the great thing about IITs is that you get to meet a lot of people, seniors and juniors and your batchmates, who are extremely good at something or the other. It doesn't have to be academics or engineering all the time. So, IIT is the kind of place where you may find an extremely good say musician, extremely good guitarist, an extremely good cricketer, an extremely good designer, filmmaker. You will find all those sorts of people. So, I would say excellence is highly valued in a place like IIT and everyone strives towards that. We literally grew up in IIT listening to stories of seniors who had done wonders in very short time. We had this cultural fest called Sarang. So, every year we would have Sarang and there was a teaser that would be made for the festival every year. So, we would see one teaser, very beautifully made teaser for one of the past editions and then we would hear stories from our seniors that “This teaser was made by so and so person in just one night.”
Jayneil: Oh wow!
Saptarshi: So, at night, the guy had no clue how to use after effects or video editing. So, he spent a whole night browsing tutorials, learning stuff and the next morning he had this wonderful teaser in front of him. So, we grew up listening to such stories. So, it made us feel like “Okay, if he can do it or she can do it, I can do it too.” So, that's the kind of motivation uh I got to live with. And I would say that's one of my key takeaways from IIT. So, I wouldn't say that IIT taught me to be the best electrical engineer or the best something. It gave me the confidence that I can do anything if I put the right effort. So, I think that has come a long way with me and even today, even till date, if I see something, I don't get scared of it. I know that if I spend a couple of nights or a little more time, I will be able to master it because I have seen my seniors doing it, I have seen myself doing it. So, that's the confidence that prevails in a place like IIT, I would say.
Jayneil: So, basically, IIT taught the pursuit of excellence is more important than just the end goal is this what I’m getting from you.
Saptarshi: Yes.
Jayneil: But now, it's like a double-edged sword. If you have everyone around you who's trying to like be the best at whatever they're doing, in a way it's not a rat race but you're still stuck in that competition. So, did it ever kind of like wear you down like “Oh my God, everybody's trying to compete here.”
Saptarshi: Well, not really. It's not that everyone's trying to compete with each other out there although, yes, a part of it is true, what you've just said, but, yeah, one thing which hits you is before you get into an IIT in your respective schools, you are like one of the toppers.
Jayneil: Yes.
Saptarshi: Everyone looks up to you but then when all these toppers from different schools come at one place, then you're not the topper anymore. You're just an average out there. Of course, among them also there could be some toppers but I certainly wasn't one of them. So, that happens to a lot of people. You are used to a certain kind of treatment. And when you come to a place, then you are not that but luckily, it didn't affect me so much because I got into many other stuffs. I was always engaged in doing something, this club, that club, this extracurricular activity or this design, that video or something. So, I kept myself really busy all the time. So, that was one advice our seniors gave us in our first year that be active, be busy as if you are the busiest person in the world. Keep doing everything that you can. So, I took that very seriously. And so, I didn't really have the free time to think about the fact that “Oh damn, I’m not the topper anymore” or “I’m not getting that attention” or something because I got that kind of attention in something else maybe, right? So, that's how it was.
Jayneil: So, what was your major in IIT?
Saptarshi: It was in electrical engineering. So, this was a five-year course. It's called dual degree. So, in five years I would get a bachelor's as well as a master's degree. Normally, if you go the normal way, it would take you six years because two years of masters and four years of bachelor's. So, this is like an integrated sort of course. So, in five years you get both the degrees.
Jayneil: So, you still have that passion and love for graphic design, you're designing stuff for the cultural festivals, you're getting involved in that. So, why not switch halfway from this electrical engineering major to just design major there?
Saptarshi: Well, one simple reason was we didn't have design major at IIT Madras. They still don't have it. Design is not a department. There's an engineering design but then that's different. That's different from the industrial design which was there in IIT Bombay or IIT Guwahati. So, first of all, the option wasn't there. And secondly, I feel even if the option was there, I probably wouldn't switch. It's not that I hated electrical engineering. I didn't love it enough to spend my whole life with it.
Jayneil: I see.
Saptarshi: I would put it that way. So, one thing which makes you good or makes you desirable in the world is … of course, everyone is good at doing what they like but how good are you at doing something you don't necessarily like because your life will be filled with such stuff as well like today I’m a designer. So, you can say that I’m living my life because I love doing it but in spite of that, there are lots of boring stuff which I do not like to do are part of design as well but my job needs me to effectively do them as well. So, that kind of taught me that I don't really like electrical engineering so much but I still have to write my exams. So, that way, in design, I really hate making merch cards. Yeah, I know there's a separate team which does it but at I need to make it and direct it in a way so that I can pass it over to that team so that they can take it forward. That's something that I do not particularly enjoy all the time. Once in a while, yeah, it's fine but …
Jayneil: Yeah, I see. So, after you graduated with the dual degrees from IIT, we come to like the placement season. So, did you end up taking a job in some electrical company or what happened there?
Saptarshi: Yeah, I ended up picking up a company, I mean, that wasn't the time when I thought that I would switch to design. I knew that electrical engineering is not what I wanted to do but then I was more of a manager or a leader sort of person. So, I thought that maybe eventually I will go to an IIM or something and get an MBA and get into the corporate world because I felt that I would do better in those. In fact, I just casually wrote CAT as well and I got called from one or two IIMs but not the top three ones like Bangalore and Calcutta. I didn't go for the GDPI as well because they were the new IIMs, the Rohtak and Kozhikode, those new IIMs. I didn't really want to go there because I felt that it would undermine my IIT degree. I mean, I was so arrogant to say that way but I just didn't go. So, I ended up taking a non-core placement in IIT. That's apparently a thing. There's a trend that the non-core companies that is say Finance or General Management or those kinds of companies, that tend to pay you more than your core engineering ones. That wasn't the main reason. I think I wanted to get in that kind of a role. So, I got into an MBA sort of role in my first job that I got from my campus placements. It was an American multinational company and, of course, the office was in Bangalore and I was a project manager there. So, I thought “Okay, good enough. I’ll get to be a manager right from my day one.” Till then I never thought that design would be a thing because design would always remind me of that guy who sits at the Xerox shop, you go and he quickly designed something on Corel Draw. So, I thought that designer would be that. I didn't want to be that. I wanted to be something better in case I pursued design. So, that's the reason why I never thought of design as a career even when I was graduating in 2014.
Jayneil: So, while you're working in the project management at this MNC, were you still practicing with the design tools or you had completely lost touch with it?
Saptarshi: I was still practicing. Casually, I would do something and that was when people started saying that “There's nothing in graphic design. You need to start making interfaces. UX and UI is the thing.” So, I would just casually try my hands on something. So, it's actually then when I got the opportunity. The year was 2015. That was one year after I took up this job. That was the time when people started talking about design and startups out here in India. So, there was this company called Housing.com. I’m sure you know about it. They raised a lot of money, 100 million or something, and they started putting those full-page ads on newspapers and everyone started talking, even a layman started talking that it's a very well-designed app. It can be compared to the ones say in San Francisco or the Bay Area, the kind of products which are made. So, everyone started talking about Housing.com. And right along that time, one of my college seniors from IIT itself, he joined Housing as a designer. He was just like me, a design enthusiast who also would design posters and T-shirts for fests and all. So, I was kind of following his footsteps. So, he joined Housing and one fine day he called me up and said that “We are hiring more designers. So, would you want to join?” So, that's exactly how I professionally got into design. So, it was that senior of mine who referred me to Housing.
Jayneil: And you don't even have a design résumé or a portfolio or anything at that point, right?
Saptarshi: Yeah, nothing at all, nothing at all. That's what I said. First of all, like I said, everyone was talking about the design of Housing. So, they were even saying that that's the best design team in India. So, what happens? You naturally feel that “Am I even qualified enough to work for the best design team of India? I don't even have a degree. I don't even have a certification in design. So, what can I do there?” So, I asked the exact same question to my seniors. So, he said “Don't worry. Design is less about aesthetics. Of course, you're good at aesthetics as well because we designed posters and T-shirts and all. It's about thinking. It's about analytical, able to break down problems and stuff.” I thought “Okay, let's give it a shot.” And he said “Don't worry about portfolio. Whatever you have, just share with them and they will give you a case study, they will give you a problem to work on. So, give your best at that. Give your best at that. They’ll give you assignment.” So, that's what I did. My portfolio which I sent to them back then was hilarious. If I see that kind of a portfolio today, I would reject. I’d say that “You haven't worked hard enough.”
Jayneil: You just have greeting cards. Oh, my God.
Saptarshi: No, no, not greeting cards. I thought “Okay, this is going to be a UX role. So, let me quickly make some UX-related stuff. Let me make some mobile screens and give,” superficial stuff mostly. So, that's what I had given. Yeah, I know that it worked back in 2015 but it's not going to work in 2020.
Jayneil: They're more competitive.
Saptarshi: Yeah. And then they gave me an assignment and there I worked really hard.
Jayneil: What was the assignment?
Saptarshi: It was a simple calendar app or a weather app or something like that but I remember that I considered each and everything, every detail – “What would happen if this goes wrong? What would happen if this is happening, that is happening?” So, I considered all the cases. So, I think that impressed them, I don't know, no one ever told me but now that now I look back, I feel maybe those were the reasons why they thought that I could qualify to be a part of Housing's design team. And that's how I professionally got into design.
Jayneil: It's almost like you're taking use of your engineering degree because, I mean, part of the thing we're taught in engineering is to kind of think about all these different scenarios like “If this happens, then what are you going to do? If this happens, what you're going to do?” and it seems like you're taking that analytical thinking that you learned for all those years in engineering, questioning the why, what if this happens, and then you pretty much, I think, you applied that to that design challenge with the calendar app.
Saptarshi: Yeah, absolutely. And not just that. Even before engineering, like I told, IIT-JEE is a kind of exam where you cannot crack it with the formula, by learning the formulas alone. You need to understand the core of it, what exactly is happening, because the first level of solving happens inside your head and the second level of solving only happens on paper and pen where you calculate, maybe apply some formulas. So, the first part was something which is very important for design, right? So, it's like getting to the core of the problem and not just on the skin. So, you need to understand what exactly is wrong and fix that because that's going to make the impact. Until today, every work that I do, it involves me going to the core of the problem, what is actually the problem so that I can solve it better.
Jayneil: Wow! Now, you had a very well-paid job with the MNC where you were working in sort of like a leadership role.
Saptarshi: It wasn't a leadership role but, yeah, it was a job with a fair amount of authority, I would say.
Jayneil: So, were you worried about this is your first job in design, how are you going to do the negotiation and the salary because I’m not sure even if they had all the publicly salaries available on Glassdoor at that time. so, were you worried that you might not ask the best rate or the best offer?
Saptarshi: You're talking about my first design job that's with Housing?
Jayneil: Yeah.
Saptarshi: So, there I didn't negotiate at all because … Today, I tell everyone that interview is a two-way process – you interview the company and the company interviews you – but back then it's like “Just let me in somehow.” So, that was my attitude inside. Of course, I didn't say that out but they gave me a really good hike. So, I think Housing was known to be one of those companies which pays really well. They were actually redefining the things. Before Housing, every other company would not pay the designers as much as developers or any other role. Designers would always be underpaid because no one really valued design as much. So, Housing was the first company where they made all kind of payments consistent. A developer, an engineer, a product manager and a designer would get paid in the same way. So, that way, I think they gave me a very good hike and I had nothing to say over that. I was actually grateful that they offered me a job and found me capable enough and I was happy with whatever they gave me. So, there was no negotiation. That was out of the question.
Jayneil: So, now, the first day on the job, you clear the interview, they send you the offer letter and then you start on Monday, let's say. So, you walk into the office. How are you dealing with this imposter syndrome which is like “Okay, I got the job now but I still don't have a degree. I mean, I haven't worked at a design company now I’m designing one of the best apps in India.” How did you deal with that?
Saptarshi: Well, that was tough. First one or two months were terrible. I had this imposter syndrome like what you've said. Back then the team was really big at Housing. I was the 40th designer, if I’m not mistaken. So, I was like one of the 40. There were 39 other designers. And I somehow had this feeling that everyone else is better than me. That's what I thought okay. And then I would see people doing amazing stuff, putting it on Dribbble and all these places and the entire world is like going gaga over how good a design or how good a concept somebody has posted. It made me feel I have a long way to go. And I remember my first project was a very silly one. I had to make one model. Housing was a like real estate, you could find houses for rent and buying. So, it's like when a user clicks on “Yes, I’m interested,” you contact the developer or the agent, right? So, you fill in your name and your numbers and all phone numbers and all kind of gets pre-filled and then you click on “send”. I had to redesign that. That was my work. And I did a terrible job. Now that I look back, I did a terrible job because that was the first time I was designing professionally for a company. My heart would always be beating above 100 bps because I didn't know what was happening and I was made to do that and I got some very critical feedback in my second week itself. I was reminded that “Hey, listen, you are still under probation. If you do not do well, we're going to kick you out.” So, that's how they said it in a sugar-coated way. And right before that, my job at MNC … you know how MNCs are, right? They're extremely stable. Unless you go and slap your manager, they're not going to let you go.
Jayneil: You aren’t going to get kicked out, yeah.
Saptarshi: Exactly. And then I’m here at the startup and on my second week itself, I get this kind of feedback but, luckily, I took it in a very positive way. And I had colleagues out there at Housing who were forever ready to help me out. So, I would go back from office and then just check the files of my colleagues and how are they doing, how are they thinking, how are they building the screen. I would read up a lot of things on the internet, what are the good practices, best practices and all. So, I would say the first one or two months at Housing, I learned the most, I learned the most ever in my career, I would say, because it was much needed. And I think it kind of paid off because six months after me joining, there was a massive layoff at Housing and, like I said, the team had 40 members and it got reduced to nine. So, they laid off 31 members. I thought I would go. There was no doubt about it. I’m the worst of them. I had to go but luckily, I stayed. I was one of the nine. Could be also the reason that I was a fairly junior designer and probably didn't draw a lot of money. So, maybe that was one of the reasons why they retained me, whatever it was, but that was a turning point because I know that if I had got laid off six months after joining design, I would never get back to it. I’d probably take off another job or head over to one of the colleges.
Jayneil: Or going to an MNC.
Saptarshi: Yeah, MNC or an MBA, something. I would certainly not go back to design. So, that's why I would say that's a turning point. And after that, actually, I did some good work at Housing because otherwise, 1/40, you're just painting one small pixel of the huge picture. When there are just nine of them, you get to do some considerable amount of work and that's exactly happened at Housing.
Jayneil: That's insane, man. Talk about luck and timing. I had a similar journey. My background is electrical engineering from Nirma University or fondly called as the university by the same guy who made washing power Nirma.
Saptarshi: Oh really?
Jayneil: Yeah, Karsanbhai Patel. I did my undergrad in EC is they call it, Electronics and Communication. Then I moved to Dallas, Texas, and worked at Texas Instruments and Intel, again, in the hardware and software field before I moved to design. So, I remember that time where the first time my job in design at AT&T and just similar to you, there was like about 100 designers and there's this ego involved that “Are they going to call me out as a fraud?” like “Should I ask somebody something?” and there's only so much you can Google online. So, so how did you deal with overcoming that ego and saying that “Hey, man, I don't know how you do this interaction or how do we do this. Can you please teach it to me?” How did you deal with that?
Saptarshi: I just went ahead and said. So, I knew that, yes, I was not a fresh out of college but I was just one year out of my college. So, I knew that if I were to survive in this industry, in this company, in this field I will have to learn and I’ll have to be shameless and ask the silliest questions and burn the midnight oil and do everything possible because, like I said, I had that feeling “If they kick me out, what do I do?” I have taken this decision. I have quit a very stable job, a very good job just to follow this. Now, I have to do justice to it. It's not just about qualifying the interview. It's about sustaining, right? The journey is much more important. And I would say my manager at Housing was very friendly and she would guide me a lot. I think she was also one of the reasons why I didn't get laid off because maybe she figured out the potential or whatever right. So, she said “You know what? Go and speak to other people. There are wonderful people in this team. Go and speak to them. Understand how they think, how they do a certain thing.” I went and exactly did that. So, there was another designer that Housing. His name is Rama. He is a great friend today, of course. He's almost like a family. I remember I went to him, I went and said “I’m trying to make this,” something that I was working on. “So, how do you think I should approach?” So, he gave me a bit of feedback, “Do this. Do that” and he was also into motion design and interaction. So, he showed me some interesting things. I remember he showed me the iOS app of Google chrome, there was a pull-down or some sort of an interaction back then in 2015. So, he said “You know, see, this is how people out there think. Everything doesn't have to be a box on the screen that you tap. There could be many interesting things that you can talk about.” So, he told me that. Then I asked him “Where do you do all this interesting motion design?” He said “I use this tool called After Effects.” I said “Okay, I need to learn this.” So, that's exactly how it happened. I went and spoke to people. They said “Do this” and I went and did that. And then in the process I figured out a lot of things. So, I think that exercise, like I said, the first two months at Housing were insane. I would sleep very little. I would always be working. I would always be trying to learn something new. So, that's how it was.
Jayneil: So, it seems to me that there was always that fear which you can't ignore, which is like “Okay, I’m on probation. Something might go wrong and then they might kick me out” and they had these layoffs but, I think, what I see is that you have that passion, that desire to learn and talk to all these people. And I personally believe that if the management can see that, they will look past the other things which is “Oh, he didn't do this right” or “He made small mistakes in that.”
Saptarshi: Yeah, I guess so. That's probably one of the reasons why I survived.
Jayneil: And then I’m assuming then it became really easy once the layoffs happened and then you wanted to move on from Housing to other companies, you already had a portfolio now. Then the journey was very simple.
Saptarshi: Yeah, it was relatively simpler after that. I think it's all inside ourselves. There's one little voice which keeps telling you you're not good. And then one day you see that voice disappearing. And then suddenly overnight you become a great designer. I think that happened to me. It's all inside us. It's not that someone else will have to tell you that you're good or you're bad. The day you feel you are good, you know that you nailed it. I think that's how it was. It was just about taking that voice out of me. That kind of worked. And also, a bit of validation as well. I think that was also the time when I opened a Dribbble portfolio and I started posting there. And I started posting random stuff. I started Learn to Animate. After Effects I learned and I started posting things. And then when I saw that “Hey, you know what? People all over the world are liking whatever I’m putting,” they are saying “It's awesome. How did you do it?” and stuff. That gives you a lot of confidence that “Okay, I’m at least in the right path maybe.” So, that also helped.
Jayneil: So, it's part basically internal validation but then also the external validation definitely helped as you removed that voice from you heard the impostor syndrome voice. I hate that voice. Still get it sometimes. Then how did you end up at Swiggy?
Saptarshi: Actually, the company approached me. Honestly, Housing was the last company I applied to. Every other okay job that I switched to, I was approached and that's how it happened. So, Zeta happened when most of the people who quit Housing, they went and joined Zeta here in Bangalore. Housing was in Mumbai. And some of my friends from Housing had also come, Rama being one of them that I was talking about. So, he said that “You know what? I think you should come to Zeta because we are doing some great stuff. Nothing is left in Housing.” He actually said that “Because all the good people have left and now it's just sustaining. So, there's nothing new that you can do out here. So, come to Zeta. We have a lot of opportunity.” I said “Okay, let's try.” So, that's how I got into Zeta and I spent over two years at Zeta and it was awesome. One of the companies with the best working culture even today, I would say, is Zeta. Zeta had one of the best cultures when it comes to team. The interpersonal relationship between your colleagues, I think that was awesome at Zeta. And I made some great friends who are my friends still today and they're not like friends, they're like family. In India, when guests come, you serve them food and then the guest never lifts up the plate. It's always the host because that's Indian hospitality. So, my friends at Zeta, when they come to my house and they eat, they put the plate on the sink because they're not friends, they're family. So, that's the kind of bonding I formed with folks at Zeta.
Jayneil: That is insane. So, pretty much the folks you worked with, they appreciated your work, they realized the potential. So, when they are moving on to different companies, again from Zeta maybe some of them went to Swiggy and then they noticed. And so, it's pretty much not just you posting stuff on Dribbble that's getting these people to contact you but it's your prior work and prior relationships you built with them.
Saptarshi: Yeah, I would say but Swiggy, I think, it happened because of the work that I had posted. Yes, there was a product manager friend who had moved to Swiggy from Zeta but I think more than that, it was the design team out there, the head of design at Swiggy, who apparently had seen my work. Actually, he was in contact with me for almost a year before I actually moved to Swiggy. So, he would always message me once a while and say “Hey, would you want to come because we are doing some good stuff here?” So, first time he messaged me, I said “Yeah, I would love to be a part of Swiggy someday but not yet, maybe sometime later.” Then six months later he again followed up. Then again, I said “Hey, you know what? Not yet. I’m doing some cool stuff here. I would want to finish them.” Then again after around another six months, this time he got in touch with me via that friend, the product manager friend that I said. So, that's when I thought “Okay, it's been a little over two years. Let's talk.” And by then, Swiggy had grown really big and everyone was talking about Swiggy's design, how good it is and all that. So, I thought maybe it would be a good move up in my career. So, that's when I spoke.
Jayneil: And the first contact with that Swiggy head of design happened via Dribbble or LinkedIn or how did he get in touch with you or what did he like about your work that made him reach out to you?
Saptarshi: I think he messaged me on LinkedIn, if I’m not mistaken. I think we were on contact over LinkedIn. And then, I think, one day he just called me. He had my number from my friend and then, of course, we decided the time and all and then we spoke for some time and then we thought “Okay, let's meet up at a coffee shop.” So, what was supposed to be a 40-minute meeting, it went on for about 2.5 hours.
Jayneil: Wow!
Saptarshi: He kept telling me about what they are doing at Swiggy, the new stuff which is coming because back then, Swiggy was just a food delivery platform, nothing else. So, he kept telling me “We are trying this. We are doing that.” He showed me some concepts in his phone, what they were thinking, in the direction they were thinking, what their three-year or five-year vision was. And then I kind of told a bit about myself like what I want in my career or what I have been doing. I remember one of the things that he said was he liked my storytelling ability, storytelling not just in terms of speaking but the stories that I narrated with the concepts or the interactions that I posted. I said “Yes, some of them could be impractical.” I mean, I know it too that they're impractical but I did them just for the heck of it because I want to say that “Hey, I know this is not possible but you know what? I can do it. So, in the future when this is going to be possible, I will be doing it,” so that sort of thing.
Jayneil: You explored the boundaries.
Saptarshi: Yeah. So, he said that he liked my thinking, the way something could happen. And since Swiggy was into the consumer side of things, I mean, I work for the consumer side of Swiggy products, so he felt I would be a good fit and that's how it happened.
Jayneil: And how long have you been there now?
Saptarshi: It's almost two and a half years.
Jayneil: Wow! That's been a ride, man. So, I’m curious now. You have a really nice job now where you're now a manager. So, what started off as a management type position at MNC, you’ve come full circle where now you are a manager, a design manager which you wanted to do, which you love and you started a YouTube channel. So, most people I see, when they get into such kind of like management positions, they're very comfortable, it's a nice job, you enjoy what you're doing, you don't have to go out there, put in the extra work, get amazing lighting like you have, start a YouTube channel. So, what made you do that? What made you focus on building your brand?
Saptarshi: So, the idea wasn't here to build a brand over YouTube or via YouTube. Yes, when I started Dribbble, yes, making my brand was one of the things because nobody knew me. That's one thing. You may be the greatest designer in the world but if the world doesn't know it, then you are probably nobody. So, when I started Dribbble five years back, that's when I thought that “You know, I need to show off to the world. I need to show off to the people and establish myself” but YouTube wasn't really that thing. YouTube happened because … even before YouTube, for the last, I think, three or four years I’ve been a very active speaker, offline events. So, I would get invited to different conferences in colleges and companies where they would want me to speak about design or conduct a workshop for them. I’ve done it in India and also in some places overseas right where I would professionally be invited for this. Then also I thought that “Maybe I should explore YouTube someday because my audience would be much bigger” but then I thought “My forte lies in the personal interaction that I do, my stage presence or the kind of stories I narrate, the fact that I you know around and interact with people in real time. That's what is my strength” is what I thought right but then this lockdown happened during COVID and that didn't change anything. People would still reach out to me but now for online events. And then I thought “Okay, I’m not really the best person for a webinar but let's try.” Then I tried webinars and actually, the response was better because the audience would be much larger because it's not bound by geographies. I mean, someone could be listening to me from Canada, from Singapore, from different parts of the world, which wasn't possible before. I would only be restricted to the place I’m speaking at. And I saw that I could do a large number of things that I would do in my offline events in an online event as well. I would still interact with people. I would still narrate stories and do almost everything. So, that gave me the confidence that maybe I can do online stuff as well. So, that was the biggest trigger why I chose to start the YouTube channel. Another reason was I also mentor a lot of designers. Every day I have a call schedule. I don't have one today because I’m speaking to you. Otherwise, every evening I have a call scheduled with someone who can just block a slot on my calendar. And what I figured out was most of the people, they're beginners, either job seekers or someone, a design enthusiast. Their questions would be similar. So, I found myself repeating the same thing almost in every call. So, it's like “I don't have a degree. How do I do?” Yes, I have an answer for that or “I did this but I’m not able to do that. So, what do I do?” I have an answer for that. So, I thought that “What if I could make videos for all of them and next time somebody asked me a question, I was like “Hey, you know what? Follow that video.” So, that's how YouTube happened.
Jayneil: And do you remember the month when you started it?
Saptarshi: Yeah, I remember. It was end of May, beginning of June sometime, end May-June something.
Jayneil: 2020.
Saptarshi: 2020, yes.
Jayneil: Oh wow! And how many subscribers have you now?
Saptarshi: I touched ten thousand just back two days back, I guess.
Jayneil: That is insane. It's such a short time.
Saptarshi: Yeah, it's short, I guess. Yeah, I’m grateful to my viewers, I would say.
Jayneil: So, how do you manage the workload between, I would say, the Swiggy day job, then you're making videos on YouTube because I see you make a lot of video tutorials and that probably takes some planning and scripting …
Saptarshi: Yes.
Jayneil: And then you've got the mentor calls that you're doing to help other people break into design.
Saptarshi: At times it gets difficult but I have this thing that I will never compromise on the quality. So, that's what I have in my mind. I know a lot of people say that you don't have to be perfect or even near perfect. As long as you're 70% there, it makes no difference whether you're 70 or 100. Many people say that. I know that if I follow that, I’ll be able to churn out more videos but I don't want to do that. I’m fine if I do not post every week or every two weeks but as long as I’m not convinced of the content that I’m pushing, I will not make a video. In between, I was, I think, consistent enough and I posted every week but last, I think, couple of weeks I couldn't. I have been posting every two weeks now because I’ve been involved in a few other things. So, I didn't really have the mental space. So, I thought “No, I wouldn't want to do a substandard job. So, I would rather wait and only when I have that space, I would make it. So, I’ve given a pause of two weeks until my previous video which I posted just two days back. So, that's what I have been seeing. It gets difficult but night time is the right time for me. That's again something my college taught me. I told you, the power of a night out, you can do anything. So, I utilize my nights. I don't mind. Once a week if I’m sleeping at 5 in the morning, it’s fine because I can function without sleep for one day. Next day maybe I will sleep an hour extra. So, that way I’m able to manage it.
Jayneil: Oh my God. So, you've got like the whole Swiggy thing going on during the week you're making the video. Let's say you're trying to make a video tutorial on Figma or whatever tool you're using right now. Do you write down what are you going to cover in the video and do you do the editing and everything yourself?
Saptarshi: Yes, everything. So, I spend the most amount of time on the script because, yes, of course, it can be unscripted talk as well like what we are doing but then the thing about unscripted is, I’d be repeating a lot of things, I would be fumbling, mumbling and it's a lot of crap inside. So, what I feel is my audience don't deserve that. I will ask for just give me your 10 minutes and I’m going to give you a power-packed content. And for that, planning is absolutely important. So, I have Notion Docs where I write each and every sentence I analyze. At times I write bullet points and at times I write the whole thing as well because I know that what I want to drive, the story that I’m going to narrate or the examples or analogies that I’m going to use, everything is pre-decided. And then I just go and record. I don't follow every word of course but as long as I know what I’m trying to say, I cover that. So, it's about UX of the video, I would say, writing. Just give what is important. What the user wants, just give it to them.
Jayneil: And even this conversation was scripted to some extent where we actually figured out the theme for it. I mean, I try to do that. Otherwise, it'll just be all over the place. So, there are definitely some guardrails where I try to like focus in. Something I am wondering is as you get more and more popularity on YouTube, you're building the brand name, I’m not saying this happens everywhere, but there's going to be a point where people at your company where you work realize that “Oh, look he's a YouTube star.” So, have you ever wondered how that might conflict with your work job where people kind of feel like “Oh, he's just focused more on his own brand” even though that's not true but it's there like some people might be jealous?
Saptarshi: Yeah, it happens. And there might have been instances in the past as well where I got to know from various sources that there are people talking behind my back about different things. When I heard for the first time, it affected me a lot. I thought it wouldn't but when I heard it, I was like “Okay, talkers will talk. I don't have to bother” but then it ended up affecting me a lot. I remember for two to three days or even more I was thinking about that “Why did they say that? Why did they feel that way?” because I thought they're friends and stuff. And that would affect a few other things. I ended up maybe fighting with my wife because I know that something else is in my head and I’m just taking it out in different other ways and I thought that that's very unhealthy. And today, I’ve reached a stage where it honestly doesn't bother me. If someone talks, I know that when you're doing something, whether it's good or bad, there will be people who will love you, there will be people who will hate you and you cannot impress everyone. I have accepted that fact. So, I think that's a part of life. And so far as work is concerned, that is my company people, I don't think anyone looks at it that way, that “He is concentrating only on YouTube” because I make sure that I do not mix these two things. When I’m working for Swiggy, I’m completely working for Swiggy. When I’m making my videos, I do not think about Swiggy and vice versa. So, I think that's one of the things which is important and I have separated it clearly out from my work. And in fact, my company people, they know that I’m into YouTube and recording videos and all the stuff. So, they reach out to me for various things because I have done a lot of things for my company's learning and development, the L&D team, like they say. So, they reach out to me, “Hey, you have been doing a great job at YouTube. Why don't you create a course for our internal people?” and I said “Yeah, why not? Let's do it.” – “Why don't you be a part of this podcast?” or “Why don't you conduct a session for the non-designers of our organization?” So, they are actually very supportive in that aspect and they celebrate, from the HR team till the L&D team, everyone, I think, is very happy about the fact and they like it.
Jayneil: That is an amazing way to put it, man. There's always going to be haters. No matter what you do, there's always going to be trolls and people. Oh, my God. I definitely love the way you look at things but you still want to keep your brand independent. If ever Swiggy or any other company is like “Hey, would you just want to like run our own channel?” where you're the one doing everything but it's under their brand, would you ever consider that or just keep your brand independent?
Saptarshi: No, I think I’m open to everything. In fact, I’m already doing it for some tools. Some tool company reaches out and says “Hey, will you make some tutorials for our product? And we'll post it on our channel and you will get the popularity and all the stuff.” I’m fine with that. So, I think that's not a problem as long as it doesn't conflict with anything. So, the only clause that I have from my company is that I cannot be employed with anybody else. As long as I take care of that bit, I think I’m fine, I’m clean. And also, Swiggy is a startup. There are bigger companies like maybe Apple, for instance, I know that if you join Apple, you're not allowed to talk or post anything about design on social media. So, I have a YouTuber friend who recently joined Apple and he's not allowed to post videos anymore. So, he's not allowed to post on Dribbble. He's not allowed to post …
Jayneil: Even if he talks about something else?
Saptarshi: No, he's not allowed to. As long as it's about design, he's not allowed to. So, they have some rules. They're bigger companies, stricter companies. So, I’m lucky that Swiggy is not one of those companies. And, in fact, they like me doing all these things.
Jayneil: Oh my God! So, what advice would you give to anybody listening or anybody listen to it afterwards or somebody just wondering “I don't have a degree in design but I do want to break into design,” what would you tell them now, having gone through that path?
Saptarshi: I would say look at the examples. Some of the best people that I have worked with didn't have a design degree. So, I think, as of today, in 2018, 2019, 2020 is when people started feeling that, yeah, design is a good job, it pays you well and stuff. So, they started studying design but before that, it wasn't the case. So, the senior people in the industry, many of them haven't really studied design. They're all self-learned. They've learned from their experience. They've learned from the internet. They've learned from the people around. And it is possible because design largely is about common sense. And as long as you're able to make use of your common sense in the right way and, of course, marry it with a bit of design specific skills, could be tools and stuff, I think you'd be good but what is important is like self-learning anything, be it design or anything, discipline is very important because there's no one who's watching you, there's no one who is going to take your examination and then say “Hey, you’ve passed” or “You’ve failed.” There are no test papers or anything. So, you're all by yourself. So, you are everything. So, for that, you need to be very disciplined and that is important if you want to crack into this field all by yourself without having a degree.
Jayneil: And what if someone doesn't have a portfolio with design projects in it?
Saptarshi: Then you make it work towards it. See, portfolio is really important from a job finding perspective. So, if you want to apply for a company, portfolio is the first thing. Résumé isn't important. We don't look at résumé at all. I don't know about other companies. I’m just talking about the kind of companies that I have worked for, the startups. No one really cares about your résumé. It's just that once you’ve started working, the HR may come and say “Hey, can you give your résumé. I need to keep it in the file just for the records.” So, that's about it with résumé but portfolio is everything. It's the face of a candidate so far as design is concerned. So, I would say, while you're self-learning, work towards your portfolio. Many people say “I haven't worked for any company. I haven't worked on any real project. So, what do I have in the portfolio?” You can always have mock projects. I covered this topic in one of my YouTube videos as well. So, you can always think of any problem that the world has as of today and can you think of a solution, digital in this case because we are essentially talking about digital product design here, can you think of a product which can solve it and can you work on it as if it was a real product. You see, the product may be a mock one but your effort is always real. So, the thinking and the effort that you put towards it, as long as that is real, I think you're are good. So, you can always have a portfolio case study with a mock project or a mock app or a website in it.
Jayneil: And how do people find you, especially on YouTube, and other places?
Saptarshi: I think YouTube is a good place. I’m available on every social media, I’m there on LinkedIn, I’m there on Instagram, I’m there on Facebook, every other place actually. And in case people want to get on a call with me, I have my Calendly link which I share with all my YouTube videos. On the description, you'll find “get on a call with me.” So, you can click on that and see what are the available slots on my calendar and you can go and book a slot and get on a 30-minute call with me. So, all those options are there.
Jayneil: And that's free, right?
Saptarshi: Yeah, that's free but I have a paid slot as well. The reason was to create some friction because all my slots … it's very likely that if you go and browse that, you would find that all my slots for the next one month are booked. So, that's the reason. There are many people who reach out and say “Hey, I have a very urgent thing.” So, how do I prioritize that? But manually if I start doing it for everyone, then it's going to be a nightmare for me. So, I thought “Let me create a fast lane, a lane with a bit of friction, nothing, very minimal amount so that I understand that your situation is really important and you need to talk to me urgently.” So, there's a paid slot as well but there's no difference between the two slots. I do the same thing. I speak in the same way. I give the same kind of advice.
Jayneil: Wow! And how much is the duration? 30 minutes?
Saptarshi: Yeah, 30 minutes, but honestly, it's not strict unless I have another call. There have been many cases where I have exceeded time and we were just engrossed in talking. So, it's totally fine.
Jayneil: And in USD, if I have to get in the fast lane, how much would I pay?
Saptarshi: 7.
Jayneil: All right. So, everybody listening, this is freaking insane. If you want to really have a question how to break into the design industry, especially if you want to break into some of these startups in India like Swiggy, Zeta and some of the ones that Sapta already knows about, I would say get on the goddamn fast lane. 7 US dollars. And I think what is it? 500 rupees? It's totally worth it. Do it. Do it now.
So, just want to say, man, it's been a blast, dude. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man. I’ve learned a lot from you
Saptarshi: You're welcome, Jayneil. I think it was great being a part of this and it was great interacting with you. I think the way you ask the questions and followed up with different things, it was a different kind of experience. I’ve been a part of many other podcasts but this was certainly different and I can say it right here.
Jayneil: Thanks, man. My hardest challenge is to shut up and just listen and let the guests shine because I am very talkative when I’m myself but the thing is, I’m a huge fan of Larry King, one of the top interviewers I’ve always looked up to. So, this is my 40th interview, I think. And what I’ve learned is that even though I want to inject myself and then tell my stories but then I have to tell myself like “This is not about you. It's about Sapta and his story and that's what his listeners want to hear.” I mean, I might share a few things here and there but it's not to hijack the conversation. I mean, now I can speak more towards the end but during the time, I try to just ask questions to point more so that you can open up more and share more stories. So, anyways, a little bit of rant.
Saptarshi: No, I think it was all good. I love listening to your bits as well and I don't think you hijacked at all.
Jayneil: Yeah but thanks once again. And, everybody, please share, subscribe to this channel and then we'll see you next time.
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