My guest today is Martin Ringlein who is a General Partner at Adventure Fund. In this episode, we chat about benefits of audio books, Martin's journey from transitioning from freelancing to starting design agency Nclud, betting big on talent, empowering employees work on side projects, how to keep star talent from getting poached by top companies, selling agency to Twitter, grooming an intern to be a CEO, how to get the timing right in your career, moving on from failures quickly, angel investing, investing in a16z fund and Chime, importance of building and maintaining relationships and much more! For show notes, guest bio, and more, please visit: www.designmba.show Level Up Your Design Career (Free Email Course): https://levelup.designmba.show/
Martin Ringlein is a serial entrepreneur and active investor. He is currently help run, Gather, a personal financial management fintech startup. Prior, Martin was Global Head of R&D at Eventbrite, where Martin joined pre-IPO through the acquisition of his start-up, nvite, in late 2016. Martin’s first company, nclud, a research and design consultancy, was acquired by Twitter pre-IPO where he went on to become their first Design Manager, helping build and lead the R&D team. Martin is also a Venture Partner at NextGen Venture Partners and Adventure Fund where he invests in early and late-stage startups, such as A16Z, Uber, PayTM, Hyperloop One and Chime.
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Jayneil Dalal: Today I’m super excited for a phenomenal guest, Martin Ringlein, who is a serial entrepreneur and active investor. He's currently helping Ron Gather, a personal financial management fintech startup. Prior, Martin was a global head of R&D at Eventbrite where Martin joined pre-IPO through the acquisition of a startup Nvite in late 2016. Martin's first company Nclud, a research and design consultancy, was acquired by Twitter pre-IPO, talk about timing, where he went on to become their first design manager, helping build and lead the R&D team. Martin is also a venture partner at NextGen Venture Partners where he invests in early and late-state startups such Andreessen Horowitz, Fund, Uber, Paytm, Hyperloop One, and Chime.
Martin, it's an honor to have you on the show, man. Thank you so much for coming on.
Martin Ringlein: Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jayneil: I know the people who are here cannot see it but on your background, is that a lot of like movies or is it books?
Martin: It's all books, yeah. A lot of books.
Jayneil: Oh my God!
Martin: Two decades of business books, basically.
Jayneil: What does your schedule look like day to day? Where do you find time to read in between all this?
Martin: Yeah. So, I cheat and I do Audible a lot. So, I have a dog and between commuting pre-COVID, I’d listen to a lot of audio books or when I’m taking public transit or when I walk my dog, we do about five miles a day. And so, you can you can listen to a lot of books on tape that way. And then my wife's an English teacher. So, she's a big reader. So, when we're at home, we'll often Netflix and chill but a lot of times, it’ll just be nerding out with a book.
Jayneil: Wow! So, reading runs deep in the family.
Martin: Yeah, yeah.
Jayneil: That is amazing, man. So, we're going to take a deep, deep dive back in the history where I’m trying to think of the time where you're the first time creative director and you hired Alex, if I’m not mistaken.
Martin: That's right.
Jayneil: So, talk to me about that moment.
Martin: Okay, yeah. This is one of my favorite moments actually and I don't think you and I talked about this, so you might not know this. So, I was hiring for a team of web designers and we didn't know what that word really meant back in 2002 going to 2003. And I specifically wanted a team of folks who had a mastery of photoshop, had a really strong eye for design because you could make really strong interesting visual interfaces for the web but I wanted them to be able to code that as well, I wanted them to be able to write the CSS and HTML but I didn't just want that. I wanted them to code it in a very particular way. I didn't want them to use tables. And, again, for anybody modern dates who don't even know what a table is or why you use tables for layout, but that was the way we built websites a long time ago and there was a new web standards movement happening led by a gentleman named Jeffrey Zeldman and you're pushing this new standard, this new way to build websites and I bought in 100%. I was all in. And I got to build this team and I had the fortune and the ability to do so. So, I wanted to pick the right people, the people that could do this. And Alex, he applied, and I didn't have a lot of time because I was busy and I just going through résumés really quickly and he submitted a link and I clicked it and it was called CSS Beauty and I went to this link and I saw this website and it was the most beautiful work I’ve ever seen in my entire life and I just thought “I’ve got to have this designer.” Everything on here was beautiful. And it was all done in CSS, it was layout and it was well formed, well coded, beautiful. I just thought “The miracle designer. This is incredible that I don't even have the ability to interview.” So, I bring him in. He's charismatic, he’s personable, seemed like a really great fit in terms of the job, the person, the team. And so, I said “Hey, job's yours. Take it.” He was like “Yeah, I’m in.” And it's not until the day he starts that I think “Oh, I should go back and look at his résumé, I should make sure …”, make some small talk and I looked at that link he sent me and I realized he had built it as a side project but it was a … Back in the day, you'd never heard of a CSS gallery before. There were no gallery sites. And so, he made one that showcases the best work on the web. So, what I thought was his portfolio was really a project he made showcasing other people's work. It turned out it was for the best because Alex is one of the best designers I’ve ever known or worked with but I totally fumbled on that interview but I did get very lucky.
Jayneil: So, you hire him and then you guys both leave to start your own design agency Nclud?
Martin: Yeah. So, Alex leaves first. The company we worked at, I won't name it, but it was … nobody would ever heard, a small little business publishing company but it was basically like working at the office.
Jayneil: Oh my God!
Martin: Yeah, our boss was Michael Scott. Our co-worker in sales was Dwight. All the characters were there. Funny and hilarious, great place to have lunch with your co-workers, all that but, at the end of the day, pretty not fun place to work like the business, it's basically Dunder Mifflin and it was a publishing company, so big on paper, but he left first and then I left shortly after. A lot of that team that I hired had left. We'd all stayed about two years and we were just looking. I mean, the web was just exploding. We were bouncing back from the dot-com bust of the early 2000s and we were all pretty excited about all the opportunities out there but, yeah, eventually Alex leaves, I leave and then we just keep talking, we keep freelancing and we decide that “Hey, we should do this together, you know. We should combine forces and build an agency and, you know, start to hire a team and get bigger contracts and clients” and we just did it one day at a time.
Jayneil: Wow! So, was it hard, I mean, back in the early 2000s partnering with Alex to just start your own thing instead of just going to a big company and working there? Did you like save up for that moment like “Oh, I’m going to have like this much money saved up and do it and start my own agency.”
Martin: Yeah. So, it was scary but I wouldn't say it was hard because it doesn't take a lot. You don't need a lot of capital to start an agency. You need talent, a laptop, an internet connection. And we felt like we had those things and we already had successful freelancing businesses. So, we knew how to find customers, how to pitch customers. Now, the question was can we find bigger ones and can we pitch and win those and that was an unknown for us but we set a couple realistic expectations. At the time, before we started, I was making about 80,000 dollars a year in salary and I thought that was more money than anyone ever needed. I couldn't imagine needing more money than that. It seemed like an ungodly amount of money. And I looked at my freelance and I was making about 40,000 and I was doing it maybe 10-12 hours a week. And so, I thought “Well, if I bump that up to 40 hours a week, I should be able to at least double it. And so, if I can make 80,000 freelancing, I won't make the original 40 that I was making, I won't make my 120 total but at least 80.” So, Alex and I said to each other “Okay, that's our metric. If we can't make 160, 80 each, a year in coming together, then we fail. So, that's the goal. Let's just do that.” And we ended up doing that like the first three months. We didn't know how or why but that was the goal was to do it the first year. We did the first three months and we said “Oh, we have something here.” And then we said “Okay, let's take the next big risk. Let's hire somebody.” And that was another scary terrifying thing that we didn't know how to do or what would come next but we just kind of jumped all in.
Jayneil: I noticed that when I was researching you and, again, it was early 2000s and the things that you guys were doing at Nclud was pretty revolutionary for the time like some of the things that come to mind is redesigning or setting a mandate to redesign your website every two years. That was just like mind-blowing like who does it. A lot of times people don't even bother about the website but you guys put this mandate to do that. There's two other things that stood out to me in terms of innovation that you're trying to bring on there where you're trying to give people chances that may not look the perfect on paper. So, you were giving chances to people that were so different.
Martin: Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, there were just a lot of things. So, we knew talent was the way to win. We knew that if we had the best talent, and the best defined by us that knew how to design, knew how to code, and really push the limits of what code could do with design, we knew that if we did that, we could beat everybody else that could possibly come into the market and no other agency could touch us. And so, that's all we focused on 100% was talent and creating an environment where the best talent could do the best work. So, that was the 100% focus but just in terms of … we always wanted to use the agency as a mechanism to do what nobody else was doing where everybody else … I would say they felt scared to do it because we were ourselves always scared because we didn't know if it would return any results. When Alex and I first decided to go out and try to land big customers, we didn't know if we could do that. We knew we could pitch small clients. We didn't know if we could pitch large clients. I didn't know if I could pitch an Apple or a Puma or an Adidas and win them. Eventually, we learned that we could but I had no idea. And so, even with the talent it was the same way but all the big risks we ever took, it was on things that no one else had figured out how to make money on yet and we said “Hey, we're just going to do it. We think it's the right thing. We think it's the direction that the internet's moving in and we think that if we figure it out, somehow somewhere someone will pay us money to do this.”
Jayneil: So, it's almost like that Google thing that they used to do back in the day like every Friday, you get to work on your pet project. So, you as the agency owner, you were not worried about the billables and all this stuff like even if the employees worked on the future gen technologies.
Martin: And that's where I think a lot of the other … even to this day, when we share the plan, nobody will copy it even when I’m just completely transparent about how it works because it's too scary. One benefited the other where we said “Hey, if we really hire the best people, let them go work on their own things. Let them go build their own personal brands and build their own websites. Let them go experiment. Let them go do all the things that the current browsers aren't even ready for. Let them build for devices that don't even exist yet.” So, you can't sell that. You can't sell that to Nike because to build an interface for a smart device that hasn't even been invented yet but what it eventually did with those experiments are it kept the talent. It pushed the talent to become better. So, everyone who we hired, we thought was the best talent, but then every day, they were with us to become better than they were yesterday but it attracted our biggest customers. It's the way that we ended up getting Google and Oracle and Apple. Apple ended up becoming our biggest customer that we had a relationship for over two years before we sold the company. Apple offered to buy the company but then that's how Twitter ultimately did buy the company because of these experiments. So, anyone that says like “Hey, I can't sell it today. I’m not going to do it,” I don't think they realize that there's a long-term value of … you're never going to get in front. None of those agencies, anyone who would have questioned us back then, none of them ever went on to work with Apple even to this day but they still stand strong with like they want to stay a little safer.
Jayneil: Damn! And I think when you were saying that, you almost sold me on it like I would love to work for you as an agency because I think in today's world if I were to go to most agencies and I was like “Oh, I’m trying to build my own brand, working on this futuristic AR/VR tech,” they'll be like “Boy, you're out of the door.”
Martin: Yeah, that was the interesting thing at the time. Now, we're talking because we sold to Twitter in 2012. So, as we start getting later into it … Silicon Valley is exploding. They're hiring a lot of talent. They're poaching a lot of talent. So, now we started worrying that we couldn't afford to pay our people what Google would pay. And so, if Google or Facebook is going to come knocking on our talent store, how do we keep them? And it turned out that they knew what they would give up if they took that salary and they wanted to stay with us. So, we weren't paying them nothing. We were paying them a lot but we weren't paying them nearly what Google would offer them for them to pick us. And then to know if they stick with us, they'll get to work with Google anyway and then they'll also get to work with Apple and Mozilla and Oracle and a whole bunch of other really cool companies. So, I think they appreciated the diversity of work and the diversity in talent that they got to be around.
Jayneil: Wow! So, they basically were signing up for more bureaucracy. I mean, in a way, I’m thinking about … and giving up on the creator freedom.
Martin: Yeah, and I think it's hard. I don't think a lot of folks, when they're figuring out what their career path’s going to look like, they realize that there's an expense that comes with. There's a lot of freedom. There's a lot of financial freedom that comes with taking a higher salary but there's a lot of creative freedom that gets given up as well. And I have these same issues when we're doing a deal and we sell a company and I know a lot of the value and that acquisition is in me staying for four years. That means that I’m going to financially benefit if I stay but I’m also going to give up some things. I’m going to give up some autonomy and freedoms that I was used to before.
Jayneil: Absolutely. And do you by any chance follow soccer or watch soccer?
Martin: I don't but my business partner Alex is a huge fan. I have a lot of friends who are big soccer fans.
Jayneil: Well, we can take the analogy of any sports team. So, what I noticed is that you were trying to create this agency formula instead of relying on the superstar employee. So, you, I think, believe that if you focus on future gen technology and hire the right people, then you wouldn't have to rely. So, I think, in a way, you're almost trying to like create this team that's centered on principles so that the agency is one day not in a bad position if like say your star employee leaves. So, talk to me about that like creating this agency formula that just becomes a machine that creates innovation.
Martin: You got to figure out what makes you different and unique. Then you've got to capitalize on that to grow. And then you've got to use that growth and that uniqueness to create more growth. And so, what we did is we realized that none of the other agencies, none of the other companies were really focused on the talent. They were all focused on the output. Twitter was a classic example of this. Their mantra was “Build a world-class product” but they never ever wanted to build a world-class team or a world-class environment for world class team. Now, they've changed and now it's the mantra now or pushing your employees too hard on mental health. These are all important things now. They weren't important back then. Back then the most important thing was world-class product. And I don't think people realize that a world-class team in a world-class environment will inherently make a world-class product. And so, we knew that early on. I also was a realist though. I knew that I can't expect anyone to stay with us forever and I wouldn't want them to. I think there is a point at which somebody should leave. And so, we had always said “If they leave within under a year, we messed up. If they leave in under two years, we could have done better. If they leave between three and four years, they were supposed to. If they stay after four years, I think they're doing something wrong” because there is a lot of opportunity out there and they shouldn't stay with us beyond four years. Our first employee leaves about that same time, James Dan, still one of the most talented people I’ve ever worked with but because of all the amazing work he did with us, his résumé is just so much better than it was before he met us and the opportunities afforded to him afterwards are just huge. And eventually, when I started another company years later, I reached out to Dan, “Dan, I’m building another team. Would you want to join?” and he said yes and that's how I know that we did it right the whole time. We built something where Dan built his career and his reputation and he went on to do amazing things and then when we said we're going to do it all over again, Dan liked us and trusted us enough to say “Hey, I’m going to come back. I’m going to do it again with you guys.”
Jayneil: That is insane, man. You're pretty forward thinking. Most of times I would like hesitate going to an agency owner and being like “Yo, I’m planning to leave” but in here, after four years, you would come to me and be like “Jayneil, what the hell is going on wrong? Why have you not moved on?”
Martin: Yeah, what are you still doing here.
Jayneil: So, it's almost like you're grooming your talent that comes to work with you at the agency so at some point either you work for them or you invest in their startups. So, it's almost like you're setting your talent up in a way where the talent that you're hiring at the agency one day ends up being a CEO and maybe just even hire you.
Martin: Yeah. I mean, that's the way it worked with Gather is Michael Dick, who's the CEO, he started as our very first intern when he was still an undergrad.
Jayneil: Wow!
Martin: He was an amazing intern. He stayed with us for the summer. He left to go back to school. Over the years, he went to go work at a handful of different places like Quora and Twitch but when I started Nvite, I saw him and I had stayed friends, stayed close, I’d contracted things to him over the years, we worked together and then when I started Nvite, he was the first call I made and said “Hey, I need a co-founder. What do you think?” And he said “I’m in.” So, he packed up, moved to Washington DC where I was based and we started building it, brought in a couple other founders. And then we sell that to Eventbrite. Mike goes on and eventually him and another guy that we worked with, Evan, had this idea for Gather and then I ended up joining them. They asked me to join them this time as opposed to me asking them and that's pretty awesome. So, now, I technically work for Mike. He's my boss.
Jayneil: I mean, is it weird in any way? I mean, the intern you hired, now you're working for that intern. Is it weird in some sense?
Martin: I mean, so much time has gone. It’s like a decade ago. There are a few interns that have worked for you in the past and it's hard because I always remember them as the intern. And so, they kind of get tight. There's one gentleman Brian who's an amazing designer but even to this day, I refer to him as the intern. I want to believe he lovingly appreciates the label but he will just always be the intern to me but Mike, he eventually outgrew that label. Now, Mike's the boss, but I think it's great because one is we were right on the talent, we spotted something special and then I want to believe that we never gave up on them and we stayed in touch and I want to believe, if you talk to Mike, he would say that Marty played a big role, even Alex, on shaping who he is today, how he thinks and his entrepreneurial spirit. And so, I want to believe that we're somewhat responsible for that.
Jayneil: Absolutely. Was it hard selling your baby, the design agency Nclud to Twitter?
Martin: That was hard. None of the other acquisitions were hard because Nclud was the first and it was our baby and we started it from nothing. We had no money, no real clients, just our freelance clients and then grew it to something that we felt was very special, something that people in our industry looked up to and respected. And so, to let it all go was tough but we were more focused on business and trends and where the world's going. And so, we saw two things happening that it took probably three or four years before the rest of the industry saw it coming and one was there was a little bit of collapse in small agencies, boutique agencies. That started to happen about two years after we did our acquisition. So, at some level it feels good to have gotten out. Two, the thing that made us unique, the ability to combine design and code, that became a commodity. We knew that that was coming too. So, I was a little, to be candid with you, scared that I didn't know how to keep staying unique, especially in the agency world at least
Jayneil: Oh, I see.
Martin: So, now, boutique agencies are dime a dozen, two or three-person boutique agencies, but when we were doing it, there were maybe a dozen, half dozen that were really good. And then the concept of an acquisition that was fueled by talent like what we'd call now an acquihire didn't exist. It existed but we didn't have that term. And so, of the big agencies that ended up getting swallowed up by big tech startups, we were the first three. And so, that felt pretty cool too. Eventually, big ones, groups out of Miami and then Capital One buys Adaptive Path, the group out of Canada, they sold to Facebook. Some of the big companies who we looked up to, they ended up collapsing. And so, it felt, on some level, good to have gotten out and to have timed it well. And I think that's what we're really good at now is knowing the trends, timing. We've had a few businesses like that. We started a co-working business before there was a WeWork or well when WeWork was just one little space in New York City but we got out of that. And a lot of people felt like, as WeWork was exploding like “Oh, you got out too soon. There's all this money on the table. Co-working is big.” And now, after the fact, yeah, sure, if I’d started WeWork, it'd be amazing but just the space in general, we feel like we got out pretty well and pretty well timed it.
Jayneil: Dude you have this Midas touch for timing like whether it's some of your stock picks that you've doubled down on that you've shared about publicly on Twitter, selling to Twitter. Is it just luck or is it some kind of like hindsight or something you built or is it you just following your intuition and gut that lets you get such an amazing timing in so many of these business deals?
Martin: I think it's a couple of things. I mean, it's always luck, right? You can't dispute that but I surround myself with folks that I think are always seeing the world a little differently than I think everybody else sees them. And so, that that helps me because when I say something like maybe you should invest … when Tesla breaks 1000 dollars a share, I was like “I need to get out” because I got in at like 80 or so. I’ve ridden it all the way to the top. It can't be any more than the top. And everyone says like “Yeah, it's never going to go any higher” and it eventually doubles from that. And so, I like looking around at what everyone's saying and then thinking “Okay, if everyone's saying, all I want to do,” I’m not going to say that that's wrong but I want to do an evaluation when I hear everyone agreeing to one thing, “If the inverse could be true, you're going to do really well.” And so, I surround myself with folks who think like that. And then when those folks say “Yeah, I think in this case the inverse is true” like the opposite of what everyone's doing is going to win, then I just go all in and I doubled down. I say “Okay, this is where we've got to go. This is the direction we've got to point the ship.” So, that's part of it. And then the other is I think just being open-minded to opportunities, sometimes that means having an unhealthy work-life balance, sometimes that means overextending yourself but it is hard for me to say no to things but I want to constantly be open to knowing that something could be big. You and I just so far have talked about a lot of successes. There's a lot of things that didn't work out. I move on from them pretty quickly. I’m just trying to think like, this one I want to blame on Alex, but he told me to buy Under Armour stock a while ago and it tanked right away and it's one where like didn't buy that much, maybe like a thousand shares, but it didn't perform well, it didn't do well but I didn't follow my traditional philosophy but it was more “Hell, I’m just going to gamble on it.” Bitcoin was one. I love the concept of crypto but I’m just not a big crypto guy, doesn't mean I don't believe in it. It's not my personal ambition or passion but I worked with a guy at Eventbrite who wouldn't shut up about it, almost annoyingly so. Every day crypto, crypto, bitcoin, bitcoin, bitcoin. He's like “You got to buy it. You got to buy it.” I’m watching every day, he comes in the office, it just rises and rises. So, finally, I say “Oh, hey, man like shut up. I’m going to open up a Coinbase account. I’m going to buy some bitcoin. I’m going to do it.” I bought like 1600 dollars, the highest it's ever been that it's never been back and I only put in like a thousand dollars like nothing but I just need to shut them up to be funny but that's one where like I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know that space enough. I didn't do the research. Yeah, I do it, I walk away. Yeah, if it had quadrupled, I’d be talking about it all day long, how amazing I am, how much foresight I have but for a lot of these … and that’s even same with startup. I’ve had like five exits now, which is awesome but there's probably a dozen startups that I’m doing air quotes right now that I’ve started but really all I did was I bought a domain, I put up a few lines of code, I put it in front of a few users and people, they didn't fall in love with it. And so, I said “Okay, there's nothing here. I’m going to move on. I’m going to go on to the next idea” because I have a thousand ideas in my head. So, there's a million of them. There's this idea called Proposals, product proposals, so Proposals. I wanted to make a ProPosal management software. I did a quick MVP. Nobody loved it. People liked it but they didn't love it. And Nvite was one where it could have been like that but when we put up the MVP people, they wouldn't shut up about it, they said how much they loved it. So, I said “Okay, there's something here. Let's keep pushing.” We push and we push and people love it more and then there's a moment at which the love is big enough that we say “Okay, we're all in.” And so, there's a lot of things that we didn't go all in on that we just kind of threw away.
Jayneil: So, from the design agency world, you've pivoted into angel investing, investing in startups. Do you also like other VCs that have an anti-portfolio like any big ones that you missed out on?
Martin: No because I never really feel like I missed out just because there's so many that I … for my retail investment side, there's so many big wins that I’ve had the fortune of being a part of just because I started investing at a really interesting time, between 2008 and 2012, and I only did tech stocks and I only did what they now call FANG and that just turned out to be an explosive time. So, again, luck but it was because I only invested in things I knew. I looked around. Nobody would shut up about this thing called Facebook. So, I go “All right, that sounds like a good stock to buy.” Peloton is one where, I just bought some more it, but I didn't want to buy one, I didn't want to spend that much money on a bike that I knew I wasn't going to use, it’s just going to sit there and collect dust but I aspired to and I could see how everyone else could aspire to. So, I thought “Okay, you know what? That's an exciting one.” Tesla was one where I made the deal with myself. I was going to put enough in the Tesla that if it hit certain price, I’d be able to afford a Tesla. And so, I wanted to say “Hey, I’m not going to buy a tesla until Tesla has paid for its own Tesla” and eventually that actually happened. The stock went up so high that my original investment, it paid for my Model 3.
Jayneil: Damn!
Martin: Yeah, that was like a cool moment. So, it's like “Thank you, Elon” but, yeah, on the startup side, I’ll take some wild gambles on angel investments where like they'll have not worked out and I invested in the person and if anything, I know that I’m going to lose my money when I started. And I always go into that with that mentality that it's going to end up with nothing but the ones that end up with nothing, there's always something. There's a relationship. And if I put, let's just, say 15,000 dollars into your idea and then three years later, you've got to fold it and I’ve got nothing to show for it, you might go join a startup at some point, you might start another one. If you, let's say, you join one and you might push harder to allow me to come into a deal that was already about to close and maybe my check was too small but you're going to say “No, help this dude out because he helped me out once. Let him in.” So, you'll end up making it back. The one example I can have for that, there's this guy Paul Singh and he started a company, can't remember the name now, it eventually became called Disruption Corporation, I can't remember the original name, but I put 25,000 dollars in. That company eventually folded. So, that 25,000 is gone, I’ll never see it again, it’s a write-off but Paul went on to create a 50-million-dollar venture fund and I called up my buddy Paul who I believed in him when he was doing his thing and I said “Hey, Paul, I’m starting Nvite,” he'll at least take the call, he owes me that. 25 grand buys me a call, I think. And we went for burgers, pitched in my idea and he said “I’m in” and he put in 2,50,000 thousand dollars.
Jayneil: Damn!
Martin: So, the way I look at it is my 25,000, I 10Xed it, right? It just got 250,000. Again, it's debt, it's an investment, they're getting equity for it but like “Hey, I’ll take it” because it was worth more to me than 2,50,000 dollars because that was big enough but that was my lead and I was able to close the million-dollar round within about seven business days because she wrote that check. To me, that was a million-dollar value that I got out of that.
Jayneil: So, it's really amazing like from going to pitching to VCs for money for your startup, now you are actually an investor in the VC fund Andreessen Horowitz. That's insane, man.
Martin: Yeah. So, that one comes from connection through NextGen Venture Partners. So, that's one where if we're going to follow the path of how I eventually get to have any association with Andreessen Horowitz, it's like when Paul invested that 250, then NextGen Venture Partners came in and then they put in about maybe 150. And so, I was one of their portfolio companies. And eventually they offered me to become a venture partner and I can start doing investments with them. And then I do enough of those and I invest in enough and there's some successes where they actually have the opportunity to get in front of a16z and then that's where I get to get in to that because of that. And so, to me, it's like believing in Paul. Then Paul gets me to NextGen. NextGen gets me to a16z. And then just any association with being part of their firm too. It helps open little doors here and there which eventually open bigger doors.
Jayneil: I think one of the comments you made to me that really resonated with me in one of our earlier calls, you said “There's always going to be some startup that I’m not going to have access to just because I’m not the Sequoia or the Andreessen Horowitz of the world.” I found that to be so profound that even though ambitious you are, you accepted that there's a limit to what kind of deals you can get access to.
Martin: Oh yeah. I mean that's why I’ll surround myself. If you go to my Twitter stream, there's people at the top of the angel food chain. So, like Jason Kalkanis. And so, I’m fortunate that he follows me and I follow him but I don't think that if … He sent me a free book which I appreciate but I don't think that I can really … he has no idea who I am. So, if I ping him and say “Hey, man, can you get me on this deal?” I think he's going to tell me to stop bothering him and probably unfollow me. So, I wouldn't do that but then there's this other guy that’s further down the food chain, not too much further, I don't want to insult him, an active investor but him and I are a little closer like we'll DM on Twitter. And so, if he thinks there's something like in the design space that I might be a good fit for, he'll send it to me. So, I started getting access to things that I wouldn't have otherwise have been on my radar. So, to me, it's a patience game. If I want to be this very successful angel investor over time like I’m not going to be a Jason Kalkanis tomorrow, maybe in the next 20 years, maybe that's how long it takes. Maybe I need to find my Uber like he did where I get in first seed round but I’m patient with it and I just take the networking one day at a time, one person at a time.
Jayneil: Holy cow! I want to get into your shoes at some point in the future, I’m not thinking too far ahead.
Martin: I think the biggest thing to remember is that it’s two decades in the making. I mean, not the angel investing but the career in general. Really started programming and designing back in 2000 but didn't really get my entrepreneurial shoes until like 2006. So, that's only really only 15 years.
Jayneil: Wow! Oh my God! And I also think that it's more about the brand value too. It's fun obviously for me to think about any angel investor even investing in any of these things. I also think about what value can I provide. And I think you mentioned to me in one of our earlier calls that you also help them fundraise, you help them with the design aspect. So, it's also like you're bringing so much value to the table along with the money for all these things that you're doing.
Martin: Not always. There's a lot of them where … candidly, it's what the founder wants. They love an investor that’s just a fly on the wall and doesn't bother them, doesn't pester them. So, I try to be silent except for when needed but there's others that need me to come on really hands-on. There's this group in Esports that had me come on for a short period as their president, so working side by side with their CEO to help them close their A round, rethink the product, rethink segmentation, how they were going to expand, how they were going to go to different vertical markets. So, everything from business development to partnerships to sales to fundraising and that's exciting for me. So, that was like a full-time job for me where that investment was bigger than anything else but I knew it was time boxed too, I’m not going to be there four years. I’m going to be there for a short period of time.
Jayneil: Wow! And then you also invested in Chime Bank. Oh my God, I love Chime. How did that come about?
Martin: Yeah. So, that one's pretty fun. I’m not a good enough or high profile enough investor to get into Chime on my own right. I need my help, my network and the beauty of investing in folks who bring you along with their own success. So, there was a product manager at Twitter when I was there named Michael Ducker, smart, capable one of the best PMs that they've ever had and he eventually leaves and starts a company and that's all I needed to know. I didn't care what the company did. If Michael's in, I’m in, I really don't care but when I found out what it was, I was like “Oh, this is actually really of interest to me.” And I’ve been doing a lot of research in this space but that's one where like they don't need my help. They have design. They have it all done. Other than me coming over and bringing coffee, they don't really need me to do anything but Michael and his co-founder Mia, they eventually build their business up to the point where it got acquired by Chime. I don't know what they would have done. So, I don't know if I really get the credit for the advice. They did call me and they did say “Hey, we've got an M&A deal on the books. Can we talk strategy since you've been through this before?” So, I appreciated that. I don't think they did it just to placate me because they'd have no reason to but what I said to them was “Listen, you could take the cash payout on this deal and then pay your investors back but what I’m willing to bet, if you ask your investor, I’m willing to bet they're all going to say the same thing as me where I’d rather not get paid out in cash. I’d rather you just get them to convert me over to Chime shares because I am with you. I believe in Chime. I think it's going to be huge.” And they talk to the other investors. Everyone, I think, agreed with my sentiment. And then when they pitched it to Chime, they were able to make that deal happen. So, it worked out well for me where that's how I ended up getting into Chime was because of the investment I did previous. So, that's one where, I want to believe … Pinch Rent was the original startup, could have done well, it could have been big but now, we're on another rocket ship that's moving even faster. And so, it'll be bigger at a faster momentum even if Pinch could have been huge on its own.
Jayneil: And I think this goes back to … I’m just looking at the way you deal with people whether it's your employees or the people you invest in. Even when selling Nclud, based on what I read, you took care of most of the employees. When selling the agency, you made sure that the employees that did not want to get acquihired, they had another option or some ways out. So, you took care of every employee. So, can you explain to me why it's important to you as a founder of this not to just gobble up all the wealth yourself or just leave the employees hanging like that or if you've seen some bad examples?
Martin: Well, some of it's just personal character. There's a lot of people who've worked in the past that would say maybe I’m an asshole or I’m tough to work with but I think deep down they would all say like “Oh, you're a decent person, good person.” And so, I want to believe that's true but that's just humanness at their core but to really answer your question, when we ask really good talent to join us, I’m asking you to take as bigger risk on me as I’m taking on you. If you're really good, you have other options and you probably know that you do. And so, if something's going to happen where you can't come with us for whatever reason, I feel like there's a responsibility on the employer to take care of you because I get really annoyed, I’ll call them out a bit, because I do love Eventbrite and I do love the company but they did something that I didn't really appreciate where, the entire four years that I’m there, they talk about how important the team is and how the team is the most important thing but as soon as COVID hit, the second it hit, they didn't even flinch and they just immediately said “We're doing layoffs.” And they tried to do a severance, they tried to do the best they can but without really thinking it through, they just laid off too many people too quickly, they overreacted too quickly and now, they're struggling to hire. They can't hire fast enough because they just let too many people go. And they didn't realize the negative effect they would have if you lay off a bunch of people, all the star people that you cap. They're the ones most likely to be able to find new jobs. And so, when you look around, everyone to the left of you and everyone to the right of you just got laid off, you're going to think “I should go find a new job because there's not a lot of security here.” So, I don't appreciate that if you talk a big game about how important the people are but then when it really comes down to it, the bottom line or the shareholder value ends up becoming more important to you. So, if that were true, just be honest, say that in the audience, get up there and say “Hey, we're going to talk about the four-year anniversary, three-year anniversary, two-year anniversary, one-year anniversary but let's just be very honest that these are not as important as these shareholders. So, let's talk about these shareholders for a second.” Nobody would ever do that because it feels so disingenuous but when it comes down to that, that has ended up with what becomes true. So, not to go on that rant, stay positive. I should mention I do really love Eventbrite and all my friends that are still working there and I still have a stock and I still feel like the business will bounce back after COVID but I think it is important … I mean, to what we've been talking about, everywhere I’m at in my life today has been because of a relationship that I had built and nurtured over a long period of time. You don't even care to talk to me or even know who I am if it isn't for how I treated Alex when I interviewed him so that he would work for me and then eventually him and I worked together and then one day me probably reporting into him or whatever it might be. And then I don't get Nclud without Alex and then I don't meet Tom who you talk to at McCall. Without Alex and without Tom, I don't get my first big like win in angel investing where he sells to InVision we were the only check-in that felt really good that gave me a lot of confidence. So, none of that ends up happening. So, to me, I just think about in general too. I tell design students this when I go to universities and talk to them that what I see a lot happen is that the talented designers in the class are going to give shit to the less talented ones and they're going to treat them like shit and it sucks. And you shouldn't but the reason you shouldn't because you shouldn't be a shitty person but let's just say you are a shitty person, the reason that you shouldn't is because that less talented designer, they might not have the same career path that you're going to have, they might not go on to do all the awesome things you have but they are going to go on to do good things because they're in the same program as you and they got into the same program as you. They're just maybe not as good at you at this moment but they will eventually go on to be the senior designer at National Geographic and then they're going to transition over to being the director of design at Discovery Channel and then they're going to eventually be the vice president of design at AOL. You could say you care less about AOL but when you're that amazing designer who started your own agency and there's a two-million-dollar contract at AOL and this designer who you gave shit to 15 years ago is the deciding factor, they're going to remember that you're kind of a dick. So, I’ve just seen no matter who you think somebody is at a certain point, after enough time, everybody is somewhere that can be meaningful. And I don't want to make it like I’m only nice to people I only care because I use it to my own advantage. I more mean like no, just be a decent human being and eventually people will remember that and it comes back to you. And sometimes there's people who I haven't talked to for a decade and they come back and they say “Hey, I remember Nclud and we're looking for so and so. Could we talk to you or could you could use our help?” and I’m like “Oh, this is amazing.” I had somebody who I hadn’t talked to in 12 years, like in early days have Nclud and they told me how they just started at a startup and they're raising money and they had some questions about what that means. After I answer all their questions trying to be as helpful as I could, my first question was “Can I get in on the round? Can you ask your CEO to let your buddy Marty come on in.?”
Jayneil: That is insane, man. Dude, I love your enthusiasm. I think you opened my eyes. You're right. Maybe that person in school right now is in one's eyes not doing that great but in 15 years’ time with compounding and stuff like damn! That person will get somewhere meaningful and could have a potential impact on some kind of deal that you might be working on.
Martin: Yeah. And I don't want to degrade anyone's job or career but at this point in my career, I don't necessarily want to be the vice president of design at a mortgage company. Let's just take Rocket Mortgage. It’s a great company. It is in the public markets that I invested in. They just went IPO, came out of Intuit but I just don't see a lot of fun being the vice president of design at Rocket Mortgage but if I’m going to go build a fintech startup and I want to do some partnership with a mortgage company and I need to get into Rocket Mortgage, right? There's going to be somebody who's earlier in their career than I am who is the vice president and it's a good place for them and eventually, they'll be somewhere even better after that but I don't want to ever insinuate like that's not a great job or a good job because that person's super important to me right now like I need to do that deal or I need to get in with that team.
Jayneil: Man, so now that you have kids, you're so into the family life, you're enjoying that, what is important to you? Is it like just chasing new deals? Is it like exchanging your time for money? What is important for you at this stage?
Martin: Okay, yeah. So, deep question. I guess everyone wants to say happiness right but I’m more pragmatic. I look at like long-term financial stability. I think it’s the most important thing for me. If you have got a wife, first kid’s on the way, I don't want to ever have to really worry about not being able to pay a medical bill. I don't want to ever have to worry about not having enough money to afford gas to take my kid to soccer practice. I don't ever want to have to worry about having to work three jobs and I can't take my kid to soccer practice or my kid has to stay at school. These are real problems that real people have. And the more that I can distance myself from not having to have those kinds of problems, I would like to. And I often just think about that and I think that, to me, is the most important thing. And all the other things, if I can have fun and they can contribute to that end game, then I’m all for it. If I can do investments that will return more money back than I lose, even just a dollar more, I’ll take it. And if I can have some fun along the way, then it was worth it. And if I lose a little bit of money but I still had a lot of fun, then I kind of look at it … that's how I look at poker. I’m a big poker player. I love playing poker but if I put in a hundred dollars and I walk away with a hundred thousand, that's incredible but if I put 100 and I walk away with 60, I don't look at it as losing 40. I was like “Yeah, I paid 40 bucks for like a night of fun. I would pay more than that to go to Disneyland and I had a lot more fun than going to Disneyland.”
Jayneil: True. What advice would you give to designers who want to make a meaningful impact in their careers?
Martin: You said it earlier. So, these are your words that I totally 100% agree with. Brand recognition, I think, is critically important earlier in your career. I don't focus on title or money as much earlier in your career. In theory, when you're younger, you're cheaper to keep alive. And so, when you say young designer, I’m assuming you actually mean like by age young.
Jayneil: Yes.
Martin: So, you can stay up later, you can work harder, you have a stronger mental health generally than somebody who's older, you don't have back pain, you just have more stamina and energy in life, passion, excitement. I have all those things but it was 10 times when I was 22. So, don't focus on superficial stuff. Don't try to be a creative director as fast as you can. Don't try to get to six figures as fast as you can. Get enough to pay the bills and to survive but I’m a big advocate of the brand matters. So, if you can get a job at Nike as an associate junior intern and you're on the design team for 20,000 a year, take it. If your alternative is 50,000 a year as a graphic designer, mid-level, in some company you and I have never heard of because Nike, over the course, it will compound, the brand value compounds over time just like investing does and you'll be able to reference that work for your entire life. I started my career at Discovery Channel and working on ‘Walking With Dinosaurs’, I still reference that to this day. Very few people 15 years later can still reference work they did. Well, that was 2002. So, it's 18 years ago. I can still reference that work and people look at a freaking dinosaur and something I did, they're like “That's amazing. That's incredible but 18 years ago?” People think it's too good. I didn't draw that dinosaur CGI, some studio did but the newsletter and the email that it went on I did and people still love it.
Jayneil: And then how can people keep up with you, follow you or get in touch with you?
Martin: Best place is Twitter. I tweet excessively, maybe too much but it's @Smarty. I thought it was clever but, yeah, at Twitter. Hit me up. My DMs are open but usually just respond to a thread that I’ve already posted on and I’m usually up for the banter.
Jayneil: Love it. Thank you so much, Marty, for coming on the show, man. It's been a blast.
Martin: No, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. The time just flew by. So, hopefully, good conversation and people will enjoy it.
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