My guest today is JT Grauke a brand designer and founder of Grauke Design. In this episode, we discuss the following: - JT's background in acting - Transitioning from an acting career to design field - JT finds out that he is bad at sales from his Birkman Career Test - How did JT ace his first design gig? - Joining Focus Lab - Leaving agency to world to become a freelancer - Charging hourly vs project based as a brand designer - How to price a brand design project? - Charging an upfront payment as a brand designer - Collecting payment from clients as a brand designer - Tools JT uses as a brand designer - How does JT find new brand design clients? - What if a client wants to break a brand design contract? - How to figure out your hourly rate as a freelance designer? - Advice for freelance brand designers For show notes, guest bio, and more, please visit: www.designmba.show Level Up Your Design Career (Free Email Course): https://levelup.designmba.show/
JT Grauke is a Brand Designer with a BFA in musical theater. Through strategy & story, he helps clients align their goals with the goals of their customers. He is married to his best friend Kelsey and together they live life to the fullest raising their two little boys.
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Namaste and welcome. This is Jayneil Dalal and you are listening to the design MBA. This podcast is a real-life MBA program for designers where we interview design hustlers and learn the skills, mindset necessary for a designer to launch a business venture. You can learn more. Find past episodes and stay updated at designMBA.show.
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Jayneil Dalal: Today, I’ve got a phenomenal guest with me, JT Grauke. JT is a freelance brand and product designer. He's worked with a ton of awesome clients and if you are looking to up your brand game or you are looking to polish up your product design on your current website or app or if you have an idea and you want someone to take charge of that and bring it to fruition, to life, then you definitely want to contact and hit up JT Grauke. And it's very simple. All you have to do is go to JTGrauke.com and just contact him. And I’m going to include a link to his website in the show notes but definitely, hit him up if you have any branding needs.
So, without further ado, JT, my friend, welcome to the show.
JT Grauke: Hey, thanks, Jayneil. I like that intro. That was awesome. You nailed it.
Jayneil: Thank you so much, man. I try, man. It is one of those things where a lot of people have podcast ads and I said “You know what? I’m not going to have podcast ads. My ads are going to be my guest.” So, that’s my thing.
JT Grauke: I’m humbled. I appreciate it. I’m sure it’s always the case. People come on and they're like “I don't know about that but I’ll take it.”
Jayneil: So, you've got a background in acting.
JT Grauke: Yeah, I do. I have a BFA in Musical Theater. I only did it in college and I did repertoire theater over summers and just shows here and there. Yeah, that's technically my formal training as an actor.
Jayneil: This is a very stupid question. Let's say your wife told you not to eat that really delicious chocolate and save it for her, okay? And you ate it and she's like “JT, did you eat it?” Do you think you can just like pull out your acting on the spot and be like “No, babe, I did not eat it at all”?
JT Grauke: Absolutely, not. I’m the worst liar.
Jayneil: I was always like how do actors live their personal life behind the scenes.
JT Grauke: Yeah, we're all terrible actors in real life.
Jayneil: Oh, that is deep.
JT Grauke: Only when the camera's rolling, only when it's all pretend, at least for me.
Jayneil: Oh my God. And then from that point where you're enacting and stuff, what got you into the design realm?
JT Grauke: I actually made a website for myself that was kind of like my own little portfolio because I had shots from shows and I remember downloading like an HTML template basically and it was kind of my first intro into looking at code and the ability to change something in code and then see it update for real on a site. And that was just such a magical experience for me. I think a lot of people describe that feeling of being able to change something just in code and then seeing what it did. And so, I just remember playing with that, getting obsessed with it and then that kind of took me down this whole realm into getting into WordPress, getting into just hacking together websites. So, I really approached design more from this kind of frontend development world. Especially it was something that was easier to find classes on. It was easier to do things where you could go through tutorials. I mean, I remember the name of that was code school where you could go and it would kind of walk you through different things and what I was obsessed with stuff like that.
Jayneil: Oh yeah.
JT Grauke: And I’d always done Adobe products. I made videos like in high school I did a few wedding videos for friends and I always just loved to put together footage. So, I was used to the Adobe suite. I was used to just kind of the interface and working in like a design software. So, I felt like I had both of those sides to me, both the creative and the design side, and sort of an eye for film and photo and design in general and then this kind of technical side with code and making websites. And after college, it just sort of dawned on me, it was like “Oh, this is like a thing. People do this. This is a job I can have.”
Jayneil: You're in acting school and you're doing this on the side.
JT Grauke: Yeah, I was doing it on the side and that was actually how I would make a little bit extra money was I started to make websites for 500 bucks and it was just like “Oh wow! This is amazing.” It was like so fun for me, it was just like a little hobby.
Jayneil: And you self-taught yourself like all the coding and design and everything.
JT Grauke: Yeah, for the most part. After college, I got a job in sales and I spent a few years in sales doing outbound, trying to sell data software but I was continuing to do the freelance stuff on the side. It was not fun. I thought “I’m an actor. I probably should be good at sales.” It didn't go very well but I ended up taking a course called Thinkful where it was through Thinkful.com. It was back when they first started and it was like their frontend web development thing. It was supposed to take three months. I did it in like two because I was just obsessed with it well but it's cool. You have a mentor. So, I would meet once a week with this guy that I think worked at ASOS. He was from the UK and he just was like a full-time developer but then he mentored me on the side.
Jayneil: What year was that, do you remember?
JT Grauke: That would have been 2013-ish, 2013 2014 maybe, maybe sooner than that.
Jayneil: And then you finish the course and at that point, what made you decide that “Okay, I think maybe coding and design is what I want to pursue instead of just working in sales”?
JT Grauke: So, I actually did a test that's called Birkman which is like a personality test. It’s like a career-focused personality test and it was actually at the job that I was working where I was working in sales. And they started to do that kind of as part of their HR thing and they were like “Wow! You really are bad at sales.” It was basically like a performance plan where it was like “You either need to get in shape or we're going to have to let you go.”
Jayneil: Oh my God.
JT Grauke: But anyway, I took that test and it was like “Man, have you ever considered like anything in sort of visual arts” is what I think it was called that was the category and I was like “Yeah, I do that all the time. Is that a thing? Can I do that?” And then I ended up basically making like a transition into their engineering department and was a UI designer. So, that was the transition that I was able to make. And then from that point, my whole world opened up and I got to kind of experience that whole realm working in-house basically as a product designer. And the guy who was there before me actually had left. So, it ended up that within a very short period of time, it was basically just me doing most of the design work for all the digital product work and was a trial by fire. I mean, it was totally into the deep end.
Jayneil: And how did you handle the pressure? I mean, you're the only one doing, this is your first official gig as a product designer, there's nobody else you can just go to for questions and answers. so, how did you go through that trial period?
JT Grauke: I mean, it was challenging but at the same time, that's how I like to work. I like that kind of higher-pressure environment where it's a lot higher stakes. Thankfully, it wasn't like they were going through a massive redesign of everything. So, I was able to do some initial ideas and what they had was working well. So, I was basically able to kind of sit and make some improvements but then also try these like grand ideas where then I got to kind of propose like “What if we thought about it this way?” Then that kind of got me into the whole realm of product management and reading a lot of stuff about that and working closely with the product manager. So, for a good chunk of time, probably about four years, there were just a few of us. It was basically me, a handful of product managers like two or three other people who had like different focuses and then it's pretty small like eight to 10-person size engineering team. So, I would do a lot of the frontend code and then I would obviously sit with a product manager and we would talk to customers and then I would get to do the design. At that time, I think I was even using the Illustrator or something like that. This was before I discovered Sketch and before I actually kind of figured out more or less what I was doing.
Jayneil: Wow! And at this point, did you see yourself venturing out to do your own thing at some point or you were like “You know what? I’m just going to stick to this corporate track, work for agencies and just build that up and maybe join some other big company at some point”?
JT Grauke: Yeah, for sure. I definitely was not thinking about doing things on my own at that point. I think, for a while I thought that I would just kind of do the in-house designer role. I wasn't really even into branding at all. I mean, I dabbled in a little bit and made a few logos here and there but it was just kind of like … I didn't really have the frame of reference for how to go about that work. So, I just thought I would maybe stay in-house there or potentially get another job doing product design and try to kind of move up the ladder and kind of jump around from company to company. That never ended up happening because I basically had that job for six-ish years and then I transitioned to Focus Lab. And that was kind of crazy because what happened was our company basically hired Focus Lab for a handful of times over the course of about three years. So, I got to know that whole team basically as a client first and was kind of the point person on like a small branding project and a little bit of like UI design. So, that was my first introduction to them and I was like “Man, that was super cool like that team is great.” I loved the process, I loved the work that they did, obviously, and I was just kind of like a kid in a candy store like “Wow! Maybe I should try to … I would love to work for them someday.” And I actually told Bill who's the CEO or CCO, I mean, it was relatively flat, I mean, at the time it was like he was just one of the founders. So, I told him, we had like a skype call and I was like “I’d love to work for you one day.” He told me later he was like “Yeah, that really meant a lot because a lot of times people will say like “I want to work for you now” and I was willing to tell him like I’d love to work for you someday. I know I’m not ready.” So, over the course of about three years, I just kind of kept in touch and just sort of opened up my whole world of just other designers and people to follow and Dribbble, I just started to venture out and try to connect with other people and just opened up my eyes. I mean, I was basically kind of focused more on my hometown and I realized there's this whole other world of people to meet and people to learn from online.
Jayneil: Now, where you just said that, that's an amazing point I want to explore more because, I mean, some people maybe consider it taboo or don't talk about it. So, you're working at a company in-house and then your company is consulting with an agency. And I think a lot of times designers do want to jump ships to the agency because it's moving at a fast pace, there's more innovation, variety of clients you work with. So, did you have to tread some kind of fine line because, I mean, your boss or the company you're working for, I mean, you don't want to tell them like “Oh, I’m just going to jump ship and join Focus Lab at the same time.” You also want to, I guess, impress the people at Focus Lab so that transition can happen.
JT Grauke: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think what I had going for me is just, and I think you just have to take it each … each case is unique. For me, I wasn't necessarily overt about telling my current company like “Well, I’d really love to work for Focus Lab.” It is one of those things I had to get comfortable with. I mean, there were seasons where I would go and I would interview at other places because I realized I hadn't really done that and I should do that and it is a good practice.
Jayneil: And what did you learn from that like when you went out and just interviewed?
JT Grauke: I mean, so much of it was just “Okay. Well, now I have to evaluate how I’m presenting myself online in my portfolio, what's that conversation like when I’m meeting somebody for the first time and how do I think through design problems and not just in the work itself but how do I explain how I think about design problems.” And so, that was really an interesting challenge and I think it was something that the company culture there, it was encouraged, not in like a “Hey, you should go get another job” but it was the sort of thing where it wasn't taboo there, it wasn't like it was a problem. Again, a lot of what they did was helping data around colleges and data around different types of employers. So, it was kind of within the whole realm of HR and job placement, things like that where it was just sort of like stuff we talked about and it's like “Hey, this is the best practice. You should brush up on your skills.” And it's common that people get to a certain point where it would be better for them to leave, to quit and go get another job because that's going to make everyone else more productive. It's like you've probably noticed that if there's certain people who've been like a tenure, they get to a certain point where they're just like kind of old and crusty and they drag everybody else down.
Jayneil: That is true. They become like super possessed about and territorial, I think it's the word. In some of the companies I worked at, the slang that was used to describe them was called “lifer”.
JT Grauke: Yeah, absolutely. So, I definitely wasn't at that point at the beginning of those three years but by the end of it, it was totally right. And when I was able to make the transition over to Focus Lab, there were just no hard feelings. I mean, everyone was like “That totally makes sense. Way to go. This is going to be great.” So, it was a really great situation but you definitely have to like … you kind of just have to feel out if your boss is going to be weird about it.
Jayneil: But then when you made the jump to Focus Lab, did you also have to work with that same client which was your former employer?
JT Grauke: No. I’m trying to think if it ever came up. I mean, there were definitely times where there were probably projects where it could have been but it was never really like that. That would have been funny though. It probably would have been great. They probably would have loved it. I think it would have been fun.
Jayneil: But I think as a creator, you would be like “Oh my God. I want some other variety of portfolio.”
JT Grauke: Yeah, for sure.
Jayneil: So, you made the transition to Focus Lab and you're enjoying it there. Walk me through the journey where you're slowly starting to get that itch more of trying to explore what it's like to be your own freelance brand and product design consultant?
JT Grauke: Focus Lab was awesome. I spent three and a half years there and super great team, got to work on a ton of great projects and work with great clients. So, the amount of just learning and experience that I was able to get in a relatively short period of time was phenomenal. So, it really was honestly mostly because of COVID. And some of the changes and things that have happened just sort of in the world at large, they had kind of made the call to cut some of salaries across the board just as a way to sort of hedge against any sort of furloughs or layoffs. It was a great move. Everyone was on board but it also made me feel more confident and like “I should probably try to find some freelance just for me and for my family and stuff like that.” It was the right time to do that. And so, what I was thinking about in terms of how to explain it, I like to think of it like this. When you have a full-time job, you're basically saying you only have one client.
Jayneil: Correct.
JT Grauke: And, obviously, when I was at Focus Lab, you'd have multiple projects at once or you have multiple clients. It's not the clients that you're actually serving with your services. It's thinking more in terms of income streams. And so, you need a little bit of freelance on the side now you've got two clients and it just sort of dawned on me, it's like “If I can think about this in a little bit more of an entrepreneurial way and I can think about …” Basically, for me, it was almost like removing the middleman. Focus Lab is basically they've got the brand, they've got the outreach, they've got sales, they're bringing clients in and then basically Focus Lab is my one client and then I do all the work.
Jayneil: It's really just your only income stream.
JT Grauke: Yeah, that's my only income stream. I had some stuff on the side and my wife and I have done some stuff with WordPress themes and there's been those things that we've always been like “Oh, wouldn't it be cool if we did that more full-time?” but basically, once I actively started to pursue some freelance clients, it just dawned on me that I could set things up in such a way that would really give me the freedom to serve those clients on my own and start to build my own brand and build toward the next 10 years.
Jayneil: So, how does one even go about doing it? Did you like save up like “Let's just save up for this many months and then I make the jump?” What were the metrics that convinced you like “Okay, now is the time to jump?” Was it like some clients had already lined up at that point?
JT Grauke: It was a combination of a few things. I mean, the savings was definitely one thing. My wife and I have some goals around saving for our home and for future investments. And so, we had been kind of chipping away at some of that goal but we hadn't put any money toward our house or this other investment. We basically just had it there. And so, that was kind of like this realization of “Oh, I guess if we just leave that there for now, it can sort of be this nest egg.” So, we had kind of an emergency fund and some other money that we were just going to leave alone as we make this transition because I still consider myself basically making the transition but then also something that we can get into and talk about was just the way that I’ve tried to set things up is more of a pay for input rather than pay for output and more of like a time-based thing than a value-based thing. So, right now as I’m building my business, I’m trying to book my time at a higher hourly rate so that I can have more predictable income based on just showing up. So, I can give you this many hours per month and it's going to be this much per month. And so, now what I’m trying to do is set up a long-term more like monthly retainer type relationships with clients as I’m starting out.
Jayneil: I just want to like interject and maybe ask you a question because there's all these videos about value-based pricing, make it based on the entire project and there's like so much stuff about it. So, I’m curious to learn why, as you're starting off the business, you're going more on like the time-based aspect, you're charging a higher hourly rate. So, why are you going for that approach instead of just making it all about value-based pricing?
JT Grauke: I like to think of it like a financial portfolio and you just have to diversify the types of projects that you have. And I could be totally wrong but this is just how I think about it right now. If I were to make all my projects value-based and do them all structured that way, that's more based on milestones or more based on the output, completion of the project. There are so many unknowns and there's so many variables that can throw things off that you put yourself in potentially some unnecessary risk, at least, for me it felt unnecessary risk versus having right now, basically, two-thirds of my project load is more of this time-based “I can give you this many hours per month and we're going to do like these types of tasks at this dollar hourly rate.” And I basically structure it like within my contracts like pay for access. So, you get access to this time. You pay for this time. It may be more; it may be less but we're generally going to agree that my involvement is going to allow me to do these tasks for this amount per month. And it's basically at the beginning of the month I send them an invoice and they have to pay it by the end of the month.
Jayneil: So, what if we take an example? Let's say I want to do some branding work with you, I want to do some branding work for my podcast design MBA, right? So, I’m the client and I come to you like “Hey, JT, I want to do some branding work.” You say “All right” and you quote me your hourly rate and I said “Okay” and then we agree to that and you set some kind of like arrangement where I get let's say 10 hours a week. Now, what if I don't use those 10 hours? Is it like those remaining two hours carry forward the next week or I’m still paying you for the 10 hours regardless how much I use them?
JT Grauke: No, the hours are not tracked and sort of kept and roll over and all that sort of stuff. And I should qualify what I normally do. And I think this is, obviously, a relevant point. If you were to come to me and say “Hey, I want branding help,” I would probably try to break it into different sections such that we could start with a value-based sort of lumpsum upfront for that type of thing. If you just came to me and said “Hey, I have this app that I want to build and I think I need your help to design it,” then I would say “Okay, I’ll give you 40 hours a month and it would be this much per month and let's go and we'll start next month. Then I’ve got a slot open” or something like that. If it was just like “Hey, I want to do a brand,” probably it would be a lot more discovery and asking questions about what kinds of things you're needing for the brand. So, I would try to do a lot of that stuff upfront because that is a little bit more predictable in terms of my process, in terms of how long I think it's going to take and I can structure that in a contract but then there's this whole implementation period, there's this whole other side of things and that was one of the differences I felt from Focus Lab where I wanted to be able to hang in there with people as they implemented brands and as they moved from “Here's the big idea” to “Here's like a Google slide template and here's a one pager and here's your site and here's some other sort of … the experience, how do we actually put this into play.” Then I would try to transition them into “Okay, let's basically turn the valve on this much and it's going to be this much per month.” It's a lot cheaper to keep a client than to go find a new one.
Jayneil: Ah, I see. So, you're providing the value in the discussions with me that you want to consult with me even when you're implementing and not just be like “All right, the design's done. Now, I’ll figure it out” kind of thing.
JT Grauke: Yeah, exactly. So, it is, I mean, I guess a bit of a hybrid approach. And I think what it is, is that there are some people that I work with where they just don't need branding help. I mean, they do because I’m basically doing like marketing collateral, they've just got like a handful of needs and I’ll say “Okay, let's create a spreadsheet and basically just come up with like a backlog of things that you're probably going to need to help with” and try to get as much of an understanding of what the work is generally going to look like if we're going to do more of that monthly thing but for the most part, if somebody just needs a new brand and they're like “Let's go through your process,” then I’ll quote them like a flat rate and a project cost.
Jayneil: I see. So, in a discovery session, if you're having a couple of sessions with me to figure out like what my brand is, what that is, that's still a charge, right?
JT Grauke: It kind of depends. I mean, I would love for that to be the case but I haven't quite gotten there yet. I think that there's definitely ways to do that where you are essentially selling like a strategy portion upfront but I usually do some sort of a discovery call.
Jayneil: I see. The first call is just to get to know if it's a good fit and stuff.
JT Grauke: Yeah, for sure. And then it kind of depends on what their needs are. And sometimes I’ll have to continue to follow up with them. And it's always better to get as much clarity upfront. I’d much rather take the time to try and understand what it is that they need for me. And if that eats into time that I could have been charging them or whatever, I’d much rather absorb that and have clarity on what exactly they need then jump into something and not necessarily have that.
Jayneil: Now, you said that if I was your client, then you would just give me an invoice that I have to pay by the end of the month. So, let's say you charge me, for the purpose of this conversation, 10,000 dollars. So, do I have to pay you like 50% upfront before I start the project with you or do I have to pay the entire 10,000 by the end of this month?
JT Grauke: Usually, what I’ll do is if it is more of like a … let's say we're going to do a brand and it's going to be 10 grand. Then probably what I would do is if it's going to be a few months out, I would say “Let's do 1500 bucks down to hold your spot” because right now I just booked a project for January and that's basically what we did. And for them what I did is I basically said “We're just going to split it up. You're going to pay for it over four months” and we just agreed that they would pay for it over several months. So, the project cost was agreed to upfront. And for that particular one, it was basically a set project cost we agreed to like a monthly payment. Then at the end of that, if they're interested in continuing to work with me and they want ongoing help, then I think we'd set up another type of agreement, which is more of the time-based hourly-based type of thing. So, especially if it were like something like 10 grand, I mean, some companies would be like “Sure, that would be fine,” I mean, you could probably do the 50:50 thing but a lot of times, I’m working with smaller companies, startups, people who are strapped for cash and it just makes sense to try to split it up into monthly payments and kind of work that way.
Jayneil: Now, do you ever worry because, I mean, for somebody listening to this and they want to become like you, a brand designer of one, they're just starting out, the key thing is about payment where somebody, let's say, is starting right now and they don't have to pay you any money to hold a spot, it's like “All right, I got to pay you the invoice by end of November” but then you've been working till November, there's this discomfort like “When are they going to make the payment?” and if they're off like a two a couple of days late, do you have to go and like remind them again or how does that work?
JT Grauke: There's tools that that I have that kind of automatically remind them. I’m always a little bit wary of that like I don't really want to pester them. I always try to get a month or two ahead in terms of just what I’m building. So, whenever I’m billing people, it's nice to be able to have the grace to be like if they're late, it's not like a huge deal. And, obviously, I’ll try to be clear. I’ve never really had a situation where people are trying not to pay me. It's usually some sort of logistical thing that would keep them or make it late. So, getting a few months ahead is a big part of that. So, whenever I’m billing for work that's been done or that I’m going to be doing that month, it's not because I need that money right then for my budget. I always try to get a month or two ahead. And in that way, anything that I’m billing for November is for like January.
Jayneil: Ah! So, you're having a buffer of cash flow that you've accrued and saved up. So, this way you're never having to pester the clients where you're like “Hey, where's the invoice for this month?”
JT Grauke: Yeah, like December's budget is basically already good, if that makes sense. So, I’m not panicked about “Oh my goodness, if they don't pay me, then what are we going to do next month?” or something like that. You're going to have to get a few months ahead. And I guess I’m not totally a few months ahead. I think right now maybe it's kind of rolling into December and it's sort of good at this point but that's kind of the hope is that as your billing work is for the month or two in advance, you're not getting into this kind of panic spot. I mean, I also am very clear with people about payment terms and if it's like net 15 or a net 30 where they have to pay within two weeks or one month.
Jayneil: What does that mean, net 15 or not 30?
JT Grauke: So, a lot of places have specific requirements and if you're working with a bigger company, they'll have certain terms where they'll require that it's paid within 30 days or at least that many days. Sometimes they'll be up to like 60 or 90 days, they'll have like net 90 terms. I haven't actually gotten into that but I’ve had a few friends that have agencies and have had to like navigate what to do when companies have a really, really long period of time before they can pay you. And it's a challenge. Thankfully, I’ve never really gotten into that and I’d also love to just not even … I feel like if a company was like “We can't pay you for three months,” I would be like … I don't know, it's just that's that would stress me out too much.
Jayneil: I totally get that. Now, for a moment, can we take a deeper dive into your tool stack? You mentioned some of the tools you have that automate the invoicing. So, what are some of the tools that help JT run his business like some of the tools you use? And I’ll include them in the show notes for everyone else who's wondering and they can use them too.
JT Grauke: I use Bonsai. They have contracts that work out of the box and I can do a proposal, an invoicing and I can send reminders and all that kind of stuff. So, for most of the logistics around contracts, proposals and then getting paid, I use Bonsai which is HelloBonsai.com. And then I also use Harvest to track my time. So, there's a little bit of an overlap like Bonsai can do time tracking, Harvest can do invoicing but I just prefer the desktop app that Harvest has and the iOS app is super nice as well. So, I use that to track my own time just for my own kind of time hygiene, if you will. It’s nice for me to be able to look back and also to make sure that I’m making good on what's been said. I’m not reporting those to clients. I’m not saying “Here's the hours.”
Jayneil: I was about to ask that.
JT Grauke: No but I will. I mean, I’m happy to have that and I always want to make sure that I’ve got it but it's not like a part of our contracts that affects anything. It's more of just making sure that I’m doing my part and making sure that I’m following through on what I said I would do and then also just kind of keeping me on track because when you're working with a handful of clients, and especially if it's more time based, then I’ll try to chunk things up into like “Okay, today I’ve got to spend three to four hours on this, two hours on that, an hour on this.” So, it's just nice to have like a timer running. And anytime I sit down and work on anything, I always start a timer.
Jayneil: Oh wow!
JT Grauke: I use Slack for communication. So, actually what I do is try to set up an instance or at least have them invite me to their instance of Slack because pretty much most clients that I’m working, with the exception of some smaller clients, have Slack. And I’ve got a few that have a different chat app. So, I try to almost embed myself into the tool set that they're used to as well always, which kind of plays into that whole like I’m almost a part of their team in some ways.
What other tools do I use? I’ve been trying to keep it pretty light. I don't want to get too complicated. I’ve used Basecamp before for project communication and things like that but for the most part, I’ll do slack. I’ve tried Loom for recording videos. I always record videos for people. Sometimes I’ll pull up a Zoom link and I’ll record my screen. And then whenever I’m delivering things for people, I always try to make it personal in that way so that I can give just the reasoning and some of my thought process behind the design, they can see my face and it's a person.
Jayneil: I do the same thing but just for trying to get podcast guests on the show. It’s like a two-minute Loom video like, for example, “JT shared in an interview on design MBA” and then maybe like a two-minute video and I’ll just walk you through the experience and everything.
JT Grauke: Yeah, for sure. So, I’ll even do that if I’m doing a proposal or something like that, just try to make it as personal as possible if I’m not able to meet with them in person. So, Zoom, Loom, Dropbox for all my files and sharing things. Figma is my main design tool, obviously all the Adobe’s Creative Suite. I have Notion open right now. I use it for taking notes. Sublime Text too. I use VS Code for certain projects because there's like a terminal built right in. So, if you have like a project or a repo that you're working on, you can actually commit changes and do git, they have like a GUI for git, a get GUI. I have a Nucleo app which is like a little icon thing that I use. I listen to music on Spotify. I feel like we're getting too far.
Jayneil: Oh my God. No, this is really interesting because it gives someone a perspective because one of the things I’m trying to wrap my head around is when you work in an agency, there's like this whole team, there's like the account manager that engages with the client, then the designer, the only thing they have to do is just do the branding or the design work. In your case, you have to do everything. So, I was just trying to wrap my head around how do you manage that workload. You got to do the design work at the same time but you also got to do the email and the outreach and the communication and everything.
JT Grauke: Yeah, it's true. And I’ve got to give a ton of credit to my wife as well. She's a huge support in all of this. She manages like all of our books and I have an accountant who does all of our taxes. So, my wife Kelsey, at the end of the month, she goes back through and we make sure that we've kept track of all of our expenses and income and household that I’m pretty sure we're using QuickBooks online for that. So, I wouldn't be able to do it without her. She’s able to kind of share the load because she's super good at that stuff.
Jayneil: That's amazing, man.
JT Grauke: No, I’m blessed, for sure.
Jayneil: Kelsey, if you're listening to this, you just realized how awesome of a guy you got in JT.
JT Grauke: It's more extra points.
Jayneil: Oh yeah, you definitely need them when the time comes. So, this is like your inner stack that's helping you. How do you go about finding clients? Do you dedicate a specific time like maybe “Fridays, two hours, let me cold email clients?” Is there a platform you use? What is your strategy for getting new clients?
JT Grauke: So, right now I’m trying to not take on any new clients, which is a bit ironic but it is kind of the nature of the way that I’ve set things up. I’m basically booked because of the clients that I have right now for the next few months, I couldn't take on anybody.
Jayneil: Oh wow! You're maxed out.
JT Grauke: Right, which is great. And it's also I could potentially be maxed out because most of the people that I’ve been able to get in and work with, there's either branding work that's been done, so we're beyond any of that stuff and now it's more of like … some of it is branding and trying to help with brand strategy and storytelling on a more regular basis through content stuff or I’m doing marketing collateral like a two-pager or a one-pager Google slides, email templates, things like that or it's product design and I’m actually in Figma and we're just working with a product team and kind of doing those kinds of things. So, what I plan to do, and most of the time it's word of mouth, I try to always leverage my internal network, hitting people up and asking for referrals, offering to give them something like 300 bucks or either a huge gift card or if I know them, if I know something that they would like but try to just throw some cash their way. I mean, I’d give them 500 bucks and probably would and should give them a lot more than that but if I were to have a client that came and said “Hey, you should talk to this person” and then they end up becoming a client, I just want to look at something that they're just sort of like “Oh wow! Thanks, man. You didn't have to do that but …” So, that's one thing is word of mouth, trying to hit up past clients and say “Hey, if you have any work.” Most of the time, I’ll hit up somebody that I’ve done a website for or something like that and I have a lot of these clients that are almost these serial entrepreneurs and they're like “Yeah, I’ve got something” and they'll come back around, which is why it's so important, the customer service aspect and really delivering on just … trying to do as well as you can on their project. As far as outbound stuff that I have done and that I plan to do in the future, most of that is on Dribbble and LinkedIn. Those are the two places where I’ve been able to successfully get work. I still like have Instagram and I’ll post there just for fun but it's literally never turned into anything and I don't know how much is following. I have under a thousand followers. So, maybe if that number were much, much higher, I know there's lots of people, especially if you're selling like a product and you have something that's … but, to me, I think it’s a peer platform.
Jayneil: More like a course or something. If you have an online course, then I think it makes sense.
JT Grauke: Yeah, exactly, but it's more of a peer platform and people who follow me and there are other designers. Dribbble, they've got more of outbound, they’ve got people who are using Dribbble to search for designers. So, you'll get some leads to that. And then LinkedIn as well where you can … that's where I’m able to actually interact with other people that I’ve worked with before and the organic reach on LinkedIn is really awesome.
Jayneil: Oh yeah. And then if you're maxed out and let's say one client drops out for whatever reason, COVID, whatever you want to say, they're just like “Oh my God, we're sorry but we've got to drop this engagement,” so in that scenario, just like when you have like a commercial lease to a building, there's a penalty or even an apartment building, if you break your lease, you got to pay a penalty. So, if a client has to drop off for whatever reason, is there a penalty they got to pay to get out of the contract?
JT Grauke: It depends on how it's set up. If it's the sort of thing where it's like we're going to start with this bigger chunk for this clearly defined scope, then I have it that they would basically pay like a pro-rated amount of what they had been invoiced. So, they have to pay something like 50% of whatever was remaining that still needed to be paid. If it's the sort of thing where it's like “Hey, we're going to be ongoing,” then for that sort of thing, I just would finish out the month and they would say “Hey, we're not going to re-up next month” and then I would just know it. I think for right now, I have something like seven days or 14 days. It's relatively short, just time that they would give me a heads-up that that's going to happen.
Jayneil: And that's where I think your strategies come into play. You're booking these clients a little bit in advance. You've got the cash flow but then you're also holding their spots. So, that's why you're not worried if a client drops out or anything like that.
JT Grauke: Yeah. And, like I said, I have a few long-term relationships where that's kind of like 80% of my time is on those few clients. And then I’ve got spots for more of these project-based things. So, I am always going to have sort of a revolving door of the project-based stuff. And most of that, I have a few different places where we've done some outbound stuff but even there, I’m always amazed at somebody who will just say that they saw our work somewhere and will hit us up but it's not a big outbound effort for me right now.
Jayneil: And then how does one figure out like what their hourly rate is? because, I mean, a lot of folks listening to this, they're going to be like “Well, I want to do my own thing but how the hell do I figure out what I charge per hour?” So, how do you do that for you and maybe what advice would you tell them?
JT Grauke: I mean, it's tough. It kind of depends on supply and demand. I mean, it comes down to what value people … I mean, I guess in some ways it always is a value conversation, what people are willing to pay. For me, it was just more of a … I just tried to start somewhere and I asked a bunch of peers and I said “Hey, what do you charge hourly? What do you think I should charge?” And then some people will come back and they'll counter offer, they'll be like “What about this amount?” and it's like I’m happy to work with people. At this point, I don't have like a super hard line in the sand. And that's also nice just because over time, I can also, and I haven't really had to do this yet, it's not negotiating but it's basically being like “Hey, starting in two months from now my rate's going to go up to this. Obviously, I’m going to keep you guys on but my rate's going to be going to that.” and that's been great because I’ve had some people who have reached out and said “Hey, we want to work with you” and I’m like “Great, this is my hourly rate.” They're like “Awesome. That sounds good.” And I’m like “Okay, cool. Let's get started.”
Jayneil: Oh yeah. So, you might even try increasing your early rate with the new clients to see if they will accept it.
JT Grauke: Yeah, exactly. And it's not like by astronomical amounts. I mean, I don't want to go to somebody and say “Hey, my rate's doubled” because that would be really trying to do something like in 10% to 20% increments rather than “Hey, we just doubled our rate.”
Jayneil: So, just to get an idea, when you were asking your peers how much they charge hourly, what were the numbers you're hearing like 200 an hour, 500 an hour? What are some of the numbers they're throwing around?
JT Grauke: I mean, I’ve talked to friends who've freelanced in like the 50-dollar an hour range all the way up to 250. And it just kind of depends on is that just them, is that them and one of their dudes, what kind of work is it. So, it kind of depends. And I’ve definitely worked with people all in those ranges as well, less so on the higher end. I even have one right now where I have like a 60-40 cash equity split. So, I ended up basically saying “Hey, this is my hourly rate but I’m going to take 60% of that in favor of getting 40% of what I would charge you to just buy units of stock.”
Jayneil: Oh wow! That's playing the long game. I love it.
JT Grauke: Yeah, it's also just like it could just totally fall … well, not fall on my face … but it's sort of like let's say your hourly rate is 100 bucks. So, then you're like “Okay, now I’m making 60 dollars an hour” and the reality is like you basically are. I mean, there's no guarantee that the other 40 dollars that you're spending in buying stuff is going to do anything, I mean, maybe but most people that I’ve talked to, it's sort of like that stuff never pans out or you've got to get [inaudible].
Jayneil: So, was that offered to you or did you propose that kind of arrangement?
JT Grauke: No, it was offered just because they were young and sort of in that startup phase where it's sort of like there's not very many people involved and they need my help. And so, it's like that's the main way that they can …
Jayneil: So, that was the only way the deal could move forward. There was no way you could just say “No, I will only work 100% cash.”
JT Grauke: And I wouldn't do that. That's not something I’m looking for. It's just somebody that I knew, somebody that I trusted and somebody who I’m like … they have a pretty good track record. So, I’m actually pretty excited about it. It doesn't feel like I’m just throwing money away.
Jayneil: So, you are a brand designer one now and there's a lot of things you're still figuring out but you've already made the jump. And there's still other people who haven't made the jump. So, having gone through this journey, what advice would you give them if they were looking to become a brand designer one just like you?
JT Grauke: I think that it really comes down to evaluating whether or not you have the skills, some of the self-discipline that, I think, it takes to be able to be organized with your time and work with clients and be able to handle some of the sales process and some of the unknowns of getting new clients and then also delivering on the work. For me, it's like I have a huge support system in place from just being married and my wife having other skills that I’m able to lean on.
Jayneil: She's your self-discipline.
JT Grauke: Yeah. So, I think it really does come down to just some of those time management skills. And I think the first thing to do is obviously just to kind of venture out and try to find a freelance thing, try to find some small projects that kind of allows you just … it's sort of the training wheels … and being able to try it out without really needing to totally take the plunge.
Jayneil: Wow! And when you say the self-discipline, you have some examples from your personal life that showed you that “Okay, I think I have the mindset and the right self-discipline that I can venture on this.” You mentioned briefly about the timing of things, delivering on time. What are other examples of that self-discipline that is required?
JT Grauke: For me, one example is just the ability to kind of make certain compromises. So, I’ll give you a few examples. I wake up at 5 o'clock every morning and that's just a regimen that I’ve gotten into. It actually started when I went through Thankful seven or eight years ago and that was the only time in the day when I could wake up and have the time to put in solid two hours before I’d have to go to my job. So, I got into that habit and I was like “Wow! This is great. I just love it.” I have extra 10 to 15 hours of my week when I got some time to myself to do some of those things. And then I was working for Focus Lab, they're on the East Coast and I’m in Idaho. So, I was able to basically do that and I’d start work here around 5:30 in the morning, that's 8:30 their time. So, I would basically work from like 5:30 in the morning to 2:30 or 3:00 in the afternoon and then I would have those other hours in the afternoon that I could play with my boys, well, you just have some more free time to be with the family or work on freelance projects in the afternoon when it's like not a conflict of interest. It's not like I was during the day just like working on freelance projects. I would try to find other times where it's like … it's basically still during the work hours, there would be normal work hours that I could devote solid few hours to that. So, being creative with just your time management. And then also, as a designer, there's times where the purists in me and the designer and more of the artist just gets upset because I really can't do the absolute best job that I want to like when you're at Focus Lab or when you're an in-house designer, you can really focus … I mean, it's just like this is your task, this is the project you're working on you've got this little sliver of it. And so, you can put all of your focus into that. That's really rewarding but then when you're working for yourself, you have to be able to make those compromises and be like … look, at the end of the day, they hire me to do this thing. They're happy with where it is. I may not be happy with it but at the end of the day, I need to be willing to make those compromises and make sure that my client is happy, I’ve delivered on something that I know that I need to do and I have enough energy to do that for everybody. And I think that's what it comes down to is that you can work yourself into a situation where you're like just working yourself to the bone and then you have nothing left to give. And that balance is something that I think I’ve just had to learn over time. And it can be uncomfortable. You'll have certain clients who are like “Hey, can we talk?”, “Hey, can we talk?” and you just kind of have to be like “I’d love to schedule a time. Let's schedule a time” and then also be like “Look, we're kind of ramping up a little bit and I just want to let you know,” like it may get to the point this week when I kind of just have to chill out and not do anything for a few days. And that can be uncomfortable. Nobody ever cares. They're not like “What? What are you talking about?” You're like “Yeah. Now, good deal. Let's do that” and then “I get it.” So, having those difficult conversations with clients or just setting those boundaries, I guess, that's probably a good way of describing. It's just having a clear sense of those boundaries that you need in order to recharge, in order to handle and give the service to the clients that you need to because you really have to … I’m at home all day pretty much. And so, I’ve got to have those boundaries so that I can turn work off, go to the gym, spend time with my family and recharge.
Jayneil: Now, when you started this or maybe even now, is there any ego involved if for whatsoever reason you have to go and get a full-time job at a company or you decide to? Are you still open to that or is it like “No, now that I’m doing my own thing, no matter what, I have to proceed on this path?”
JT Grauke: No, I definitely don't feel any … if I needed to go get a job, at the end of the day, to me, it's a means to an end. And that's, ultimately, for me, to be able to spend more high-quality time with my family and my kids. I’m a Christian as well. It's ultimately all about glorifying god and, at the end of the day, this is a gift that I feel like I’ve been given. And so, it's just my job to be a good steward of it. It's like all these opportunities, all the work that's in front of me is basically something that that I’ve been given and it's just my job to try to do as best I can for the clients that I have but, at the end of the day, if it all crashes and burns, then to god be the glory and I’ll go get another job, I’ll go do whatever. I mean, it definitely at time feels like it's about me and there's totally ego wrapped up in the work. And I think there's an element that can be healthy. I mean, you want to be able to enjoy it and be proud of it and feel like you did a good job and you're using your talents in a way and it's good. I think, that's a wonderful thing but, no, if I needed to or if I needed to go get another job, I’d be happy to do that.
Jayneil: Oh my God. I love that, man. How can people contact you or follow you on social media?
JT Grauke: So, I think, probably the best way right now is just on Instagram or if you're a designer on Dribbble. I’m on LinkedIn too. There's not a ton of people that are like … I mean, there's definitely a lot of peers on LinkedIn but that's less but LinkedIn is probably another good spot. Obviously, check out my site. I need to update that more and more and the plan is to continue to do that over the next few months, just JTGrauke.com.
Jayneil: Awesome. Thank you so much, JT, for coming on the show, man, and sharing your wisdom. It's been a freaking blast.
JT Grauke: Thanks, man. It's been really fun to be on.
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