My guest today is Dave Huber who is a Design Practices Lead for IBM's Cloud and Cognitive Software division. In this episode, we discuss the following: - Dave Huber Bio - Making videos as a small kid - Lessons learned as a freelance videographer - Why should designers care about business - Benefits of Systemic Design - How to measure the impact of design in a company - Why companies struggle to measure the impact of design - Is it worth getting a traditional MBA as a designer? - How to implement the Business of Design at your company - How can designers embrace corporate politics - How to evangelize for design at your company as an individual contributor designer - Dave Huber’s advise for design leaders implementing the Business of Design - Why Design Rockstar award isn’t that effective in motivating a design team - How to contact Dave Huber For show notes, guest bio, and more, please visit: www.designmba.show
Dave is a Design Practices Lead for IBM's Cloud and Cognitive Software division. He recently published a Business of Design field guide and worked with IBM's chief design officer to create business of design resources and workshops for their over 600 designers.
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Read Dave Huber's article to learn how to articulate the value of your design work - https://uxdesign.cc/the-business-of-design-fec915a60231
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Namaste and welcome. I am Jayneil Dalal and you are listening to the design MBA which is a real-life MBA program for designers. You will learn how to launch a side hustle and level up your design careers from the interviews rock star designers.
Jayneil Dalal: Today's amazing guest is Dave Huber. Dave is a design practice lead for IBM's cloud and cognitive software division. He recently published a Business of Design Field Guide and worked with IBM's chief design officer to create Business of Design resources and workshops for their over 600 designers.
Dave, my friend, welcome to the show. Super stoked to be talking with you.
Dave Huber: Hey, Jay, thanks for having me, man. Excited to be here.
Jayneil: Man, I love that we both got that glass game going on I got the blue glasses and … I can't pull off those glasses. Let me just tell you that. I’ve tried those on at Warby Parker but I can't pull them off.
Dave: Yeah. Yep, as they say if the shoe fits, wear it.
Jayneil: So, you know what, you're a video pro, right? So, you're really good at video editing and stuff and I’ve seen some of your productions and I’m “Man, this is those Netflix style” who even says Hollywood style but now it's Netflix style super …
Dave: Thank you, thank you.
Jayneil: … kick ass. Walk me through Dave as a child. Was Dave as a child always creative? Who was Dave as a child what were his hobbies and interests?
Dave: I love it, jumping right to it. It's a therapy session in a good way. When I was a kid, I was running around with a camera, video camera, in middle school. We had a family … that was tape cassette recorder. It wasn't even digital. And a kid down the street had an early bootlegged version of Adobe Premiere Pro and gave me a copy and I started making videos when I was a kid. So, the version of me when I was young is similar to who I am now, I think.
Jayneil: Wait, how old were you when you actually started learning the Adobe tools and video editing?
Dave: That was middle school, seventh grade. So, 13, however old kids are then.
Jayneil: Oh my god! Because that era, we didn't have that many internet video tutorials and all these things. So, how did you actually teach yourself just the tool and just all the ins and outs of video editing?
Dave: Yeah, big, big fat book. Well, you know, Adobe Premiere Pro for dummies or something and trial and error. Yeah, I’d have to convert the cassette tape to a digital file. So, we'd play it back, the computer would capture that, make a digital and I’d start editing it and add music and titles and I was like making magic.
Jayneil: Oh my god! And then you have this passion for video. You're doing a lot of that. Walk me through what happens after college? What made you choose to pursue the route of being a videographer, a video producer?
Dave: Yeah. After college, I graduated with a business degree and didn't want to go into a corporate gig right away. I thought trying to find and create value for clients with videography which became really cool, was making music videos for fun and then people would ask for a commercial and then a Kickstarter video and I keep getting paid for it. And trying to help them hone their message and have them look their best and deliver it in a compelling way, to me, was just something worth learning how to do. So, I’d rather be kind of poor and a freelance videographer trying to make quality content for my clients than have some kind of boring corporate job which I have now. No, I’m just kidding.
Jayneil: So, this is amazing. You said Kickstarter and I cannot emphasize the importance of video for a Kickstarter project. The video is literally what makes or breaks the whole project. The video is the only artifact, at least initially, the people who are backing a Kickstarter project are going to see. And the thing is when … I’m an amateur video editor. I suck but I remember when I started on that journey, there's this thing where you want to put in all the fancy cuts and have flames popping in the background, all this new filter you want to put in and show everyone “Look, I’m a video pro” and all these cool techniques. What made you, when you were working with clients, really focus on the value or the message you're communicating in those videos?
Dave: Yeah, the same mindset that, I think, is serving me well now with this Business of Design way of thinking, which is it's about the outcome. If it looks great but it's not causing your audience to click on that call to action, if it's not actually converting people … and so, in some ways it's not just getting the video right but getting the right video. And, I think, that's kind of a fundamental concept in design which is so great, not only getting the idea right but getting the right idea, taking that time to frame what it is that we shouldn't be making to begin with before we start to make it all polished but when I was young, just making it polished was enough. So …
Jayneil: Wow! So, you're saying that if you're a professional videographer and you can make the most slickest video but if it doesn't solve the client's need, whatever that need might be, you're saying that then the videographer's not done a good job or could even get fired.
Dave: You know, it’s tough to say. There's probably a distribution of effectiveness. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule on that but the notion that, and it goes back to testing and measurement which, I think, is a big theme for the design MBA mindset that I have which is you can't manage what you don't measure. And so, you could have a really slick video that's five seconds versus a more in-depth emotional piece that's 30 seconds and people could debate all day about which one's going to be more effective and the only way to find out is to prototype them both and test it. And I think that's the same thing we find in software design and other business ventures.
Jayneil: And this is amazing because what I’m seeing the parallels is that you've taken this mindset of creating videos from your previous background where you had to hone in the message for the client, help them get their message across and focus more on those needs rather than just the slickness of the video, how cool the video is, but kind of merging both and you've brought that together at IBM where you work and you've been working in spearheading a lot of those initiatives around the Business of Design. It's just mind-blowing. So, my first question is a lot of designers, the first thing that we think about is usually “Why should I give a damn about business? I just want to make like cool designs. I want to make like things that are super cool that people like. Why should I even give a damn about design?” So, what do you say to that, Dave?
Dave: Yeah. Well, we're all doing design by some company for business and we're there because they pay us. So, we're already in the Business of Design. And I think there are some people who just like to kind of make visual decorations and there are needs for that. I just recently went to a great public workshop on a guy who's making posters for music festivals and they're beautiful, they're great. And so, for people who want to do that type of visual design that's more closer to art, that's totally cool. We need some of that. That can be a healthy happy way to have a career. So, nothing against that. For me, personally, I’m interested in how systems deliver outcomes. And so, making sure that what we're trying to make is delivering on what matters and having an outcome that's kind of sustainable and knowing whether we're moving the ball forward or backwards. I think once people are on enough teams where they may work all year and look back and go “Gosh, we actually kind of made the wrong thing” or “I think we framed the problem the wrong way.” It's like “Man, we just wasted a whole year solving the wrong problem. It looks great, it's beautiful but it's not actually moving the ball forward.” At some point, that becomes frustrating. I think people … in some ways, it gamifies design. You say “Okay, you asked me to redesign this landing page.” I could do that and give it to you and personally be pleased by it but it's much more interesting, I think, to say “Well, let me figure out if the audience, the customers, the end users actually find it more engaging.” In some ways, it makes everything more of a science experiment and it really puts us at the mercy of our users. We're at their service and getting them to be the ultimate judges of the quality of something, that's, I think, a really beautiful challenge. It's like solving a mystery in a way and it brings humility to teams because nobody is suddenly the expert. We kind of leave it up to the end users, the customers to help us decide, to measure how we're moving the ball forward or backwards for them and the business.
Jayneil: And this is amazing thing you said that you're very much interested in the system’s design of thing. You want to create a system that ensures that it's sustainable and it continuously creates design that helps meet the business goals but then one could say that “Man, you know, if it's a big company, IBM or any other company, just hire like smart people and just let them do their thing. Why do we need a system in place? Why can't we just let people do their thing and it just turns out okay.”
Dave: I think hiring smart people is a good goal and hopefully those smart people say “Hey, we've been doing this …” There's a great book called Upstream Effects. And humans have a tendency to respond to problems as they come downstream. And so, hopefully, somebody can go upstream and say “Hey, instead of us solving the problem every time it comes down to us, we're going to go upstream, prevent the problem from even happening and make it a systemic or perpetual solution that requires less work over time.” And that kind of highlights a big theme which, I think, all designers with an MBA or business mindset need to know which is return on investment. Everything we're doing … And it's a very simple concept, I think, for humans and primates and animals – Is the juice worth the squeeze? And so, when we're hiring smart people, putting in good systems, are we evaluating the bang for the buck, the return on investment? And I think when we make systems that endure, the operating costs are lower, which makes the return on investment higher.
Jayneil: And there's an amazing quote. I hope I don't butcher it but it was so amazing that you shared with me in one of our earlier conversation. You said that “As designers, we we're either helping generate money for the company or helping cut costs.” And that was so powerful because, I think, a lot of times as designers, we just want to do good design and really, we don't want to venture into the business side of things. So, I think that quote was so eye-opening for me like “That's what. They're paying my bills. So, the company's paying my bills. I can't just sit all day and create beautiful design that doesn't solve their business needs.”
Dave: Yeah, it's true. I mean, every system, whether it's a business or non-profit organization or even ecological system, has inputs and outputs and it's like energy coming in and energy going out for humans. We have to have enough energy coming in to sustain what's going out and it's the same for businesses. And so, when we just kind of lift our heads up a little bit higher as designers and look around at the broader picture, it's pretty fundamental to recognize that “Okay, the organizations we operate within need to be self-sustaining. If things are costing more than they're generating, it's a system that degrades over time and eventually falters.” And so, yeah, whether it's business or non-profits or any other system, I think, recognizing like money coming in, money coming out and that's an equation, that's a ratio and you can impact both of those. And oftentimes we do. We're just not fully able to articulate or measure the impact of it.
Jayneil: And this literally just came to my mind. A lot of listeners on the show are designers that aspire to go into leadership. Some of them are already there. And I’m just throwing the scenario at you just to kind of get your thoughts on it. So, a designer that's just being promoted or they're a design executive, they've been hired by a company that “Hey, our design is not that good. We want you to come in and ramp up the entire design practice.” So, that's the context of where they are but now, this person has hired a bunch of designers but how should they even go about doing the thing that you've done at IBM, that you've spearheaded the Business of Design at IBM? How could they now replicate something that at their company where they can actually measure that “Okay, I was hired to start a design practice,” hire a bunch of designers but how do I even go about measuring the right thing? What should I even measure to justify that this was a good amount spent on starting a design practice at the company?
Dave: That's a big question and it's an important question for people that are kind of overseeing design programs, right? Those are expensive investments. They need millions and millions of dollars to buy all these designers and maybe an executive says “Hey, this looks great. Our products look better. I hear our customers are happier using them but is that covering the cost of what we're spending on all these designers? Is this efficient? Is it effective?” And so, I think, if I understand your question, what should somebody in a position overseeing a design program measure to be able to articulate the impact of that investment? Well, you're either saving money or helping generate more money. And so, you kind of look at both of those, “All right, how are we creating more value on the bottom line?”, which is really cool because I remember reading a lot of people who studied business back in the day would go on to be consultants and most consultants were focused on saving costs, cutting costs, making things more efficient because it's actually easier to do that than it is to kind of figure out how to generate new additional value but designers are really good at that. They say “Man, I think our customers would love this” or … I noticed on a community thread people keep saying this this thing's their favorite part. They would actually pay more for it. It was just a little bit better. So, generate new value by doing the user research. So, somehow, you're going to have to make sure the system is measuring additional revenue and how much time and money is being saved. And the ratio of those two things are important. You can actually keep revenue the same and cut costs but make your business more profitable and leaner. Now, the hard part about this is laddering up. So, people say “Okay. Well, I improved user experience or made things more consistent across our products. I know that makes our customers happier but how do I put a dollar sign behind that?” And that's something that we were looking for when we were making the field guide for the Business of Design for IBM's cloud and cognitive software and we couldn't find anything. And so, we spoke with a couple people who had their MBAs, a couple people who were in design, we prototyped some ideas, we kind of would play it back to people and we ultimately landed on this concept of laddering up. At the top of the ladder you have business outcomes like revenue, profit, market share and obviously that's where we want to get. At the bottom, we have user outcomes like a faster time to value, reduced error rates, increased task completion rates, quantified ways of helping track how well we're helping them use our tools. And in social media platforms, it's a little bit different but we're in the kind of enterprise B2B space, that's where IBM’s at. And so, we make tools for other businesses to use. So, they really do have specific jobs to be done. So, those user outcomes on the bottom like task completion rate. And then at the top of the ladder you have those business outcomes. Well, what's in the middle? And this was often the missing link between connecting the qualitative improvements in the user experience and the quantitative impact on the business outcomes. And so, we call those product outcomes in between. So, things churn and conversion, customer lifetime value. In a way, these are all kind of these interim metrics that you can use with some very simple math to say “Okay. Well, the task completion rate for the new sign up flow is twice as high. So, we're getting a 20% increase in customer conversions. The average revenue per user is X. so, the new number that came through times how much money we generally make from each one of them is tada! Additional revenue.” So, it's a relatively simple math, sometimes just a plus sign and a multiply sign, maybe a little bit of division. And when I was interviewing distinguished designers at IBM to learn more about this, one of them who was doing it really good, she just called it backup napkin math which I really like. I think the mindset is just that you can get a napkin out, multiply a few simple numbers and you're able to estimate ideally how much revenue you're creating or with other equations how much money you're helping company save.
Jayneil: I am a bit speechless at the moment because I have too, Dave, not heard a better explanation live on air on what the Business of Design is. I’m not even sugarcoating. I really mean it. I was literally hoping that please don't stop, please keep saying more. It was …
Dave: Thanks, man.
Jayneil: It's so simple because suddenly what you just said makes sense like I want to make, as a designer, the customer flow visually beautiful or more intuitive or frictionless. Maybe I want to cut down some flows to make the speed faster but then you said that in the middle, there could be some outcomes like “Hey, we’ve reduced the task completion time” which customers enjoy. And because they enjoy, maybe they stay longer or upgrade their service which leads to the top outcome which is the company’s what they want is X amount of dollars or revenues. And suddenly it's so simple but then my thing is if I am having an aha moment right here and I’m like “Oh my god! This makes so much sense,” why is it so many companies still struggle with this? I mean, I know, this is, obviously … I mean, you can't speak to all the companies. I’m just kind of wondering why is everyone not doing this?
Dave: I think it's lack of accountability in a way. I think … and some companies do. Some companies have really clear outcome-defined OKRs and those are great for software teams. If you're making a physical product, you're asked to make a bicycle or you're asked to write a policy or make a book, often times our goals are output. They're framed as outputs – “Make this thing.” And oftentimes we aren't even held accountable to the outcome that's we’re supposed to deliver on but if the leaders above say “This is what I want you to make,” I would say “Great. We'll go do it.” And if the leaders aren't defining the outcome of what that thing is supposed to deliver on, then from the top down, it's kind of everyone's just like “Well, you told me to make this thing and I’m on salary. So, I made this thing. Here you go. Whether or not it's good it's not my fault. You asked for it. Here it is and we say “Yeah, that's right. Thanks for making it. It looks really good. We'll figure out if it's even delivering on the thing … on the outcome that's intended to later or maybe we won't because, honestly, the instrumentation and tracking of metrics, it can just be really hard.” And so, you know if the boss’s boss’s boss says “This looks great I like it,” you get a promotion, anyway. So, I think, it's not only a lack of accountability vertically. I think it's lack of accountability personally but it's also just training. I think a lot of us … I went to business school and design school and I wasn't taught this. It wasn't until …
Jayneil: Oh, you weren’t?
Dave: I mean, some of the underlying concepts, obviously, like making money, saving money but no, this line, this thread between these two disciplines, Design a Business … I have a Bachelor's Degree in Business, a Master's Degree in design … was never brought up. And so, in academia, it's not there. The training isn't there. And so, it's not really anyone's fault, to be honest, because it's just not a practice just as user experience design wasn't to practice 20 years ago. And it almost makes natural evolutionary sense that first we have to learn how to do user experience design before we have to learn to measure how effective it is. And I think the industry is just so young that it took this long for us to figure out “Hey, is this even making an impact?”
Jayneil: And I asked you that question because I know a lot of design managers and designer friends who literally go to an MBA because it's like “Well, Jayneil, I don't know how to speak the business language. I want to communicate better with the business partners. I’m just going to get this MBA.” So, they view this MBA as this magical thing that will somehow make them overnight … or not overnight but like after two years … better at doing all those things. And it's really refreshing to hear someone say that if that's the sole goal you're going for, you may not be 100% satisfied.
Dave: Yeah, truly well said. I mean an MBA is a badge of some approval. I do think the literacy that it provides is great and some programs are more innovative than others. I’ve seen these design MBAs. Obviously, that's kind of the topic that you have here because there's a demand for it. I think, yeah, we're getting there. It's exciting to see the progress.
Jayneil: Now, imagine the head of design comes to you … and I keep going back to the example … like some head of design comes to you and you're “Oh my god, Dave. I totally understand your model. You know, I understand what layering up is. I’m going to have like outcomes at the bottom that care for more of the customer perspective than the middle stuff and then how is it going to affect the revenue of the company. Oh my god, this is awesome.” And then maybe I’ll write a Medium article on it and I’ll share that within the company. And I’ve seen so many times where in companies and stuff where the vision is awesome, just you said the, like the PowerPoint deck or the keynote is awesome, everything makes sense on paper, but there's a lot of effort that has to be done to really translate that vision on paper in that deck into reality. So, can you give some examples of what some of the things that you and your team did at IBM to make sure that this is not just a vision but it's actually implemented and people are accountable for it?
Dave: Yeah. Make sure I understand the question correctly. You're saying it's easy depict something in slides whether it's a design or the business of design but actually, applying it is harder. So, how do we … how does a team bridge that?
Jayneil: Yeah. So, like what systems would one create? I mean, this example you shared with me, right? That's awesome. I totally get what business of design is now or how should one go about it but then how do I go about implementing it on my team? What would I do like what systems would I put in place? Is there trainings I should do?
Dave: Yeah.
Jayneil: Is there some accountability or some frameworks you have or designers have to go through this step-by-step process to make sure that this model is followed?
Dave: Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I think for the business … for great design, and to this question, a lot of it falls on behavioral psychology in a way. And so, I think if we frame … a well-framed problem is largely solved. What is the problem in this instance that you're presenting, which is a very common one? It's not … people often say we need to educate our designers on how to do this. And that's kind of true. That's part of it but what we really want to do is have our design teams be in the habit of doing this thing. Again, this is a perpetual system in a way. A habit is a kind of effective perpetual system. So, how do we … so, better way to phrase the problem is how do we get our design teams in the habit of doing the business of design is one way to phrase it or get them in the habit of measuring their impact and articulating that you're defining business outcomes, aligning around them, delivering on them and articulating their impacts. How do we get our teams in the habit of doing those things? It’s a beautiful question. And looking at behavior psychology, and I’ve heard of the Stanford Design Institute or was it the Stanford Behavior Design Institute with BJ Fogg, but there's a very simple equation which is behavior will occur when there is sufficient motivation, ability, and a trigger. So, those three things need to be focused on for getting teams to do this, what we're talking about here, the business of design. And so, motivation, ability, and trigger. So, ability is the education part. You have to know how to do this. So, training, workshops, those are all totally valid and useful. Motivation, so keeping them inspired on this. So, maybe that is compensation, “Hey, you'll get a cash bonus at the end of the year if you can articulate how you drove increasing revenue or cut some cost for the business.” So, somehow getting motivation. Even you start with why. It’s great there. Show, don't tell. Stories are great. Creating culture is good in this context, the rituals and traditions. Maybe you come up with a ritual of celebrating the most impactful design award or something, “Hey, this design here for our team increased conversion by 4X and generated an additional 4.5 million dollars in revenue this year.” So, you may celebrate these people. So, create a culture that motivates people. And then T is for trigger. So, again, the formula, very simple, behavior will occur when there's sufficient motivation, ability, and trigger. So, B = MAT. That's how I remember it. And this final one is a trigger which is oftentimes either a mental, environmental, social, to be time-based, a bunch of different types of triggers but this one is most often overlooked because people will forget to do things unless there's a trigger. And eventually, those become intrinsic triggers, you just remember to do it, but initially they kind of need to be external or extrinsic triggers in a way. So, at the end of every month, every team checks in on this or there's a automated Slack notification that pings up and says “Hey, don't forget to check this.” So, yeah, that's what I think teams should think about is creating habits which are based on behaviors. There's also this habit loop from Charles Duhigg with the cue, routine, reward. Unfortunately, we're not too distant from Pavlovian dogs here, you know, ring a bell, give us a cookie, we'll start to salivate when that bell is rung. In some ways product teams need those cue, routine, and rewards but wrapped up, I think, in a culture that supports and celebrates this and making it something that people relish in a way. Maybe there's fun and games involved and it's not just a stick but a carrot. People say “Oh, yeah, whoever wins the most impactful team, gets to wear the jester hat or the king's hat for three days, they get to change their Slack photo to have some celebratory decoration. You make it fun because too often these cultural … these initiatives are just mandates from top down and giving it this grassroots bottom-up celebration and ownership of pride in knowing that the work that they're doing is having a specific impact and being able to quantify and articulate that, to me, that's all the things I think about when thinking about how a design program should adopt this new culture really made up of habits in which design teams relish the opportunity to know their impact on the business.
Jayneil: And right there at the end you said this thing where a lot of times these design program outcomes and celebrations seem like they're just top down. They're not really bottom up. What do you mean by that? Can you give an example where it feels just a top-down versus what would be actually like a bottom-up example?
Dave: Yeah. Sometimes it's just the messaging. And this is tough pill to swallow as I hear it out loud for myself which is that sometimes you can orchestrate things with the leadership but have it announced not by the highest paid person, it’ll have to be announced by somebody who's maybe really involved in the grassroots. Sometimes it's just how it's presented. So, it can have … ideally, there's the support of leadership but rather than them owning the messaging and dictating how it's done, leadership just says “Hey, I’d like …” for new hires … go to the new hires, “Hey, you guys have been here six months. We want to invest in celebrating and owning and having a culture that is prideful of measuring the impact of our work. You guys will figure out how to create an event that celebrates the people who are doing that well and we're going to support it.” So, they're given them that autonomy, you're telling them kind of the outcome that you want but not how to get there and give them some funding and let them put on some event but that the organizational chart is tricky because then you also need to talk to the managers, you need to tell the managers “Hey, we've had our new hires. We just asked them to do this. Is it okay if we get a little bit of time?” You can go up to the directors “Hey, by the way …” So, you have to message everybody. My understanding and my advice for what's worked for me is messaging everybody up and down that totem pole, giving them all slightly different message, just getting their buy-in, giving them a heads-up because nobody likes to see things come from under them, you don't want to see that your team's working on something that you didn't give them the time for. So, lots of messaging up and down the totem pole and giving ownership to some of the younger tiered employees to maybe start a new cultural program.
Jayneil: I would love that way more than if the chief design officer just said that “Oh, we're having this cool thing. We're just … the newer employees are just sharing that, the pizza party.” And you talked about this messaging up and down the totem pole. Designers have a very strong aversion to it like “Why do I need to go up and down the totem pole and doing all this messaging and convincing?” This idea is awesome. It should itself speak for itself “Why do I need to do this messaging?” What advice would you give designers to not necessarily make peace with it but just kind of look at it as like this is the way of things and you can use that to your advantage?
Dave: Yeah. Well, that's a great question that hints at something that I’ve been opening my mind up to more from great books is the context in which we design is very much just part of our design brief. And in some ways the definition of a strategic designer is somebody who doesn't only design an artifact but tries to create a permanent shift in the equilibrium of the system that it's going to exist within. That's a lot of concepts strung together there. Something more concrete would just be you're going to make something for your company and it has to survive that company culture and context in order for it to make it through and have to be delivered and to be live and make it there for your customers and users. And so, messaging up and down the totem pole or just kind of having … sometimes people call it playing politics but in some ways, it's really …
Jayneil: Yes.
Dave: … being a strategic designer. Let's say you're asked to design a new park for a public city … a public park for a city. A newbie designer might say “Well, here it is. It's an amazing park. Check it out. In fact, it's so beautiful, I’m not going to take questions. You guys should just build this. It's amazing” or “Hey, we tested it with some users. They love it” but the professional, designer this goes back to outcomes over output, says “I don't really care about the park. I really want to see more kids laughing. And so, I’m obsessed with the outcome of what the park is supposed to deliver, which is an increased sense of community, increased public health, kids laughing, kids having fun, families meeting each other. That's the outcome of the park. I’m obsessed with that. Whether it's a park or a one-time party, I’m going to find a way to get there.” And then, when that goal has been shifted up, it's not the output. This is this great mantra “Outcomes over output,” I think every designer should just write that really big on their desk right now because that's something that needs to be said every day, “How do I make sure I’m delivering on outcomes over output?” And so, as soon as you raise it from making awesome park, in this example, to increase all those metrics of community we just talked about, then having to do all the messaging and PR with the mayor's office and the parks and rec department and the developers and the architects and the construction team, you're like “That's part of the game. That is part of the design brief. That is being a designer who's a strategic designer who cares more about the outcome and the output.” And that's always what UX design has been about. It's do our users love it. On the spectrum of art to design, in a way, art is about the output “Here's the thing. If you like it, I don't care” but design, we have to be judged by the people who use it and the outcomes for them isn't about a park. It's about laughter and play. So, I think when we put our eye up a bit higher and ask “What's the outcome that's intended from this thing I’m supposed to make?”, all of a sudden, our job description or what we're maybe comfortable doing which is maybe this messaging up and down the totem pole is totally fine because that's just … it's part of the means to the end that's worth doing in and of itself.
Jayneil: I have so many things to say right now but the first thing I want to say is that I wish as many as possible Fortune 500 companies could get Dave Huber as a consultant and really just have them hear your talk, your workshop or something because… I don't know, maybe it's your style like how a straight shooter you are but the way you're making this sound suddenly doesn't seem that like this thing that “Urgh, I’m a designer. I don't deal with that,” suddenly it's like “Oh wow! That makes sense” like “Okay. So, talking to everyone is not politics. It's part of the game. It's how it's supposed to be. It's not like I’m just creating this art and it's just my perspective of how it should be. There's people whose needs have to be involved and stuff.” And I don't know, maybe the spin you're putting on it or the Dave spin is making some more sense to me. so, that's what I wanted to say right away.
Dave: I appreciate that. Well, hats off to the people who I’ve learned from. I’ve got a book here on my desk which travels with me and I’ve read it a couple times, I shared with you before, by the great Joshua Seiden who I think did Lean UX but “outcomes over output” is a huge mantra that I think all of our designers need to be focused on with a small caveat that unchecked outcomes … in some ways Facebook is a master at a lot of things we're talking about here. They measure what they're doing and they optimize metrics that have an impact on the business. And we see what happens when that runs out of hand. I mean, we basically have a profiteering system that's just plowing people over at all costs. And so, it can be a dangerous thing. So, outcomes over output is super important but we need to make sure that outcomes aren't just profit over everything, which … if you're new to the business of design, you kind of start there but at some point, if you get really good at it, you maybe make something that's kind of dangerous.
Jayneil: Absolutely. So, consider the situation where you've got a designer at a company that's listened to this episode, read your article, get the business of design, understand that but they're kind of in the middle of the totem pole. So, they don't really have the sway as maybe the chief design officer. And they're like “I’m in a company that's slowly understanding, design’s got a seat at the table, they get it but, you know, I don't know how to speak the language of design, I’m slowly learning it, I’m not involved in all those meetings yet, my product partners just come to me and be “Hey, this is the change we want you to do.”” So, someone who's not high up the totem pole and they're listening to all this advice you're giving them, is there something they can do, do they still have any kind of sway or power they can influence or it's just like don't even bother trying for them?
Dave: Yeah, absolutely. In some ways, I think those are some of the most critical players because they have I think a little bit more … if it's not expected of you, it's kind of going above and beyond in a way and I think it shows leadership. To me, it starts with a very simple question which is “What are we trying to achieve and how do we know if we'll be successful?” Very simple question. And I think it's one we should ask all the time. And it's amazing, I think, if you can be in … I think 90% of teams, if you ask them to answer that question individually and share their answers, they'd be shocked that the answers are so different. So, it’s like “Well, I thought we were trying to do this. Well, I thought it was this. I mean, isn't this really what we're trying to do?” and they're like “Oh my god! We haven't even have … we've been working on this project for three months and it's just now becoming evident that we're trying to solve different problems.” So, if you ask that question “What are we trying to achieve and how we know if we're successful?”, with the five whys kind of in your back pocket there, so it says “Well, we're trying to update our landing page and we'll be successful when it's done.” Okay, that's an answer to that question but it's not a great answer because you said … So, it's really balancing at that outcomes over output. So, it's basically … or you could ask … similar to how we'll be successful is “How are we making the company money?” or “How are we saving the money?” and that one's harder, as I say it out loud, because that's hard for anybody to answer but it's what a team should know because at the end of the year when we all have to kind of reflect on what we've done for a company or we’re up for a promotion, if you can say “You know, I would really love to show how we're generating a bunch of money for the company with what we're doing. This seems really valuable. Is there a way we can quantify this? I feel we're generating like millions of dollars for the company with this redesign and I’d love for us to be able to report that back at the end of the year.” That's maybe the best way to go about doing it. It's positive. It's collaborative. You're focused on the end in mind. Who's going to say no to that? So, I’m prototyping and testing and iterating and refining here live on the spot a little bit. So, I’ll refine my answer to that.
Jayneil: I love that because, suddenly, we're talking about money and I think I’m realizing this that as designers, we are so much focused on the visual and the craft side of thing that we don't realize that our counterparts that we spend time with, I’m talking about the product managers, the product owners, the business analysts, all these people, they live and breathe business. They talk about numbers all the time. And it is their job. They are hired for the sole job of meeting those business expectations. So, in a way, now when I look at designers that complain about like “Oh, I was in a meeting with a product manager and they just talked about this savings and this many turnover rate and this metric they got to hit” and the designer was just “I wish they would just focus on the design,” I kind of get it now. I kind of get it why as designers if you start speaking in the same language by saying instead of like “Ohl, I want to make this beautiful design,” by saying that “Hey,” like you said, Dave, “I want to help us. I think we're contributing this many millions of dollars but I would to like quantify that. And I feel this design that me and my team are proposing can help get to that goal.” And I feel that's a much positive way that will help other stakeholders to really come at the table and be like “You know what? I’m interested in listening what you have to say there.”
Dave: Yeah, yeah, totally. I agree.
Jayneil: Wow! Oh my god. I’m literally … I’m so excited right now, I’m like “You know what? I’ve got all these like takeaways right now from Dave, I can't wait to go back to the office on Monday and tell my boss like “Oh my god! We got to do all these things.””
Dave: Yeah, that's awesome. I love that.
Jayneil: What advice would you … having run this program successfully at IBM, what are some of the, I guess, the learnings mistakes or things that work that you would just like probably share that with someone who's maybe in a much early phase but trying to implement the same success that you've had implementing this program? What would you tell them?
Dave: Yeah, for somebody who's in a position of overseeing a design program or influencing it and trying to help them increase their design maturity by being able to understand …
Jayneil: Absolutely.
Dave: ,,, how design plays a strategic role for business, some of it goes back to that culture which … I like this definition of culture. One way to define it is simply its behavior over time and it's a pretty sensible definition, I think. If you see people exhibiting a certain behavior over time, that's a culture. We kind of go back to habits because habits are how we operate. It's efficient for us. And so, we're really trying to create habits and a culture around this and we frame it that way. There's some great literature to look at. There are … Hofstetter, this guy's got five elements of culture which start with values, rituals, traditions, symbols, heroes and practices, so a combination of some of those. And so, you do want to think about pushing on all those, how do we celebrate the people who do what we value well in our culture. Let's create a culture around this. And so, again, what that goes back to, there's a great book called The Power of Moments and it talks about how to celebrate kids who are kind of graduating from high school in this new and exciting way and they actually doubled their graduation rate because it created a culture where the freshmen see the seniors being celebrated when they announce live to the auditorium which college they're going to. They have a culture there where they have a tradition and a ritual of celebrating and really celebrating those who achieve this new reinforced value of graduating, going to college, so building a culture around it. And I think one of the ways that happens is we find other leaders in that culture. So, it can't be one person. You got to say “Hey, we are going to have a push to reinforce this value of ours which is understanding the impact of our work. I need 10 people across the company who are going to help me with this, kind of hub and spoke model.” You say “Great, I’m going to give you some autonomy but here's the outcome that we're going after” and this is somewhat similar to these kind of OKRs, create rituals and traditions and ceremonies and give the education and instrumentation needed to track all this stuff. So, it goes back to that behavior formula, motivation ability and a trigger. That's how I think about it.
Jayneil: And an example that comes to mind, for me, is, and you've seen this at many companies where they have this thing where they celebrate people this because talking back to the graduation study you were referencing, so they have something called a Design Rock Star or design award for someone, some designers who've done really well. Maybe this is my take. A lot of times when I’ve been as part of those cultural programs on the receiving end or just witnessing it, there would be a jam-packed schedule for it in like an hour like what's happening in the company and then there would be just five minutes where it's like “Okay. So, this month's design rock stars are, Dave, Jayneil, this.” And I don't know, in that moment it didn't feel like this thing that people wanted. It was like “Oh cool. I got my name on stage” and it was like quick like they did this. And now that I’m thinking about what you just taught me, I’m like how could they change that? What if like in that moment, instead of like celebrating 15-20 people, even if you've got 100 designers, they spend that five minutes maybe just giving that to one or two people and the chief design officer personally mentioned what was the contribution, I don't know, like something that was more engaging would make everyone want to like aspire to that level rather than just be like “This month's rock stars are these, these and these people. Next month's rock stars are these, these and these people” and you get like, I don't know, a 50-dollar Starbucks gift card. It's not even about the money.
Dave: It's true.
Jayneil: So, that example I’m thinking about like just this … a process created like Design Rock Stars every month or design … awesome designers every month and the awards are given, they're not that effective. And I’m just like there could be different ways to change that and make it like, like you said, truly cultural transformation where people really want that.
Dave: Yeah. It's not a bad start. It's tough. I mean, I recognize that is a common framework like we do that too where it's “Yeah, you're a rock star. Here's a couple extra dollars” but it doesn't seem to really be adopted culturally. And I think that's because it's still one person deciding maybe or maybe it's kind of a voting thing or it's just not reoccurring enough, it's kind of a one-time thing, kind of forget about it, so maybe if it's done more often … And then, I think, sometimes it's just lacking stories. We are the storied people and creature and the truism of start with why. And so, if they just say “Jayneil is a rock star because he articulated the business impact. Good job. That's the extent of our business of design program as we celebrate somebody every month or year quarter with a 200-dollar gift card to Starbucks,” it's lacking, I think, the story there. So, even just recognizing that person is great because people should be compensated and awarded and become and they become a hero in a way that is part of culture. So, it's a good start but if they tell more of a story there and just say “Hey, Jayneil, he had been working on this product and he really wanted to improve these metrics but they couldn't figure out how until he spoke with some of our users. And guess what he did? He decided, blah, blah.” So, the story goes on and hopefully people tell that story, it should become folklore in a way so when other teams are saying “Hey, we should try to win this award,” they say “Well, that actually reminds me of the time that Jayneil won it” because they remember the story. A story is such a memorable consumable thing. Packaging the story, disseminating that, having people talk about it “I remember it must have been three years ago he won that award” or “she won that award and it was because they did this.” Being able to tie that why and that story into it is, I think, a way to bolster that awards and recognition but you're right, still not deep enough because in some ways that's top down as opposed to kind of bottom up. I think that's often what's missing in these cultural programs is that bottom-up initiative, yeah.
Jayneil: Mind blowing. How can designers get in touch with you if they have questions about learning more about business of design, maybe they want to connect with you? What is the best way for them to get a hold of you or follow you or keep up with what's going on?
Dave: Yeah, LinkedIn is a great spot. I’m trying to post more content on there about this topic because it's something that I’m passionate about because not only in software or product design but in non-profit work, in political work … let's say you work for a public government, a federal government, state government, being able to show how the work that you're doing is having an impact on the organization and impact for users. So, this is a really important topic for that reason. Thank you for hosting this podcast on it but, yeah, reach out to me on LinkedIn about it and I’m excited to see what designers can do to shape the future.
Jayneil: Got it. Thank you so much, Dave, for coming on the show, man. It's been a blast.
Dave: Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.
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