My guest today is Brian Sullivan who is the founder of the Big Design Conference. In this episode, we discuss Brian's journey of losing weight, checking account principle, being a net giver, investing in people, transactional vs transformational relationships, challenges perfectionists face, reverse mentoring from mentees, figuring out who to invest in, dealing with difficult people, setting boundaries with people, how to change the world as an individual, believing in second chances, building your inner circle of diverse opinions, building future design leaders, embracing politics, abundance vs scarcity mindset, playing long game, letting stuff go, how to network with people and much more! For show notes, guest bio, and more, please visit: www.designmba.show Level Up Your Design Career (Free Email Course): https://levelup.designmba.show/
Brian Sullivan is the Director of Design Strategy for Sabre, where he applies user research and consumer insights with the latest technology to build new products for the travel industry. He is an expert in design thinking, user research, accessibility, usability, and innovation. Brian has led design thinking workshops with several Fortune 500 companies, actively participates in the user experience community, and founded the Big Design Conference, which has over 1,000 attendees each year from around the globe.
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Jayneil Dalal: Today's amazing guest is Brian Sullivan who is the director of design strategy for Sabre where he applies user research and consumer insights with the latest technology to build new products for the travel industry. Brian has led design thinking workshops with several Fortune 500 companies, actively participates in the user experience community and founded the Big Design Conference which has over 1000 attendees each year from around the globe. Brian is also the president of the UX Dallas Meetup which has almost 3000+ members. Brian also founded the UX Certification Program at Southern Methodist University where students are taught Design Strategy, User Research, UX Design, and Usability Testing within one semester. Brian is also an internationally recognized industry speaker.
Look, I could go on and on. Brian is such a badass but for me, he's uncle Brian. Brian is the guy that helped me break into the UX industry. If you are looking for an awesome conference to attend, I highly recommend attending the Big Design Conference. Go to BigDesignEvents.com and sign up. Fun fact, I’ve done all my jobs in the design field literally from attending this conference.
Brian, welcome to the show, man. So excited to have you here and this is just very like heartfelt for me to be just chatting with you because you are the guy that helped me break into UX.
Brian Sullivan: Thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate it. You're an inspiration for me and many other people, sir.
Jayneil: And you do look like you've lost a lot of weight. How's that going on? What's the secret?
Brian: The secret is Atomic Habits. That was a book that you suggested that I read. And so, I did a little bit of reverse mentoring. So, I talked to you, Jayneil, and you talked about how Atomic Habits had changed your life. So, I’ve had some issues. I’m a little bit older. So, I’m in my mid-50s now and I’ve got two granddaughters. My youngest one is actually a COVID baby. And so, I want to be around, see them, play with them. So, about 18 months ago, I read Atomic Habits. It was based off of your recommendation. And then you gave a terrific talk at Big Design last year on it, very inspiring. And so, some of the Atomic Habits that I developed was just an exercise routine and eating routine. And talk about like design thinking your life, right? So, looking at some of the really bad habits that I had, I did a lot of intermittent fasting and that's just having an eating window and then I exercise every day. And my goal for this year in the year 2020 is to walk 2020 miles and I’m over halfway there and my challenge this month, this is July 31st, I wanted to walk 9 miles every day. And, Jayneil, after your podcast, I still have to walk a mile and a half.
Jayneil: Wow! So, you're going to go out and walk?
Brian: Yeah, I’m going to go out and walk for a mile and a half because I want to hit 9 miles a day in the month of July in Texas. That's how crazy I am but Atomic Habits changed my life.
Jayneil: Oh my God! I’m just kind of thrown back, what is it, 2013 end or 2014 and that was the first time that I attended my first UX meetup, the Dallas UX Meetup and I ran into you and, I think, my life changed for the better. I remember meeting you for the first time and the most profound memory I have is you teaching me the check-in account principle. So, what is that?
Brian: Wow! You refreshed my memory. You have a better version of it than me. I’ll add color commentary. So, why don't you go ahead and explain to the audience? And then I’ll just provide kind of what my intention was. Is that okay?
Jayneil: Absolutely. So, I remember the first time I came here, I mean, to the meetup and you asked me if I could shoot video or not and I said “Sure. Why not? I mean, how hard can it be?” And you kind of gave me an opportunity and a task to start recording the videos of all the speaker that came to the meetup and I started the Dallas UX YouTube channel. And afterwards, you explained to me why you had me do that and you said “Jayneil, this thing would blow your mind” and it did. You said “It's the checking account principle,” where you said, “Imagine everybody is a bank, everybody that you interact with. And if you interact with Adam, Adam has a bank and you have an account in it. So, every time you ask for a favor, you're making a withdrawal from that bank.” And you explained to me that if you always go up to people asking for favors and never giving back, then you're going to go into a deficit, it's going to be like an overdraft and that's where people start avoiding you. So, you said to me two things. One was “Be a net giver. Don't be a net taker, meaning even if you ask for favors, give it back to the community in some way.” And second thing you said “Before asking for a favor from someone, make a deposit, meaning do something for them first. Then ask for something in return.”
Brian: It's kind of the concept of an emotional piggy bank, right? And exactly what you're saying. So, you pass the test once again, flying colors, Jayneil. So, the emotional piggy bank is really important. It's important in our collaboration with other people on our team. It's important with our family. It's important really with anybody in the community. And exactly what you're saying, if all you do is go up and ask someone for favors and you don't give back, all you do is take, take, take, take, take, at a certain point, the emotional piggy bank gets empty. And then if it goes too far, it's like smashed and broken into pieces and you can never really put it back together but if you are making deposits into that emotional piggy bank, things will occasionally go wrong and you're going to need to take, make a withdrawal but if you've made 40-50 deposits into the emotional piggy bank, it's a little bit easier to ask for that favor. And the interesting thing about the piggy bank is it's not monetary. It's emotional. It's very emotional. And you, Jayneil, could make 50 deposits into the emotional piggy bank but for the other person, emotionally, they maybe only felt two or three of those. That's okay because you still have made those emotional deposits. And the ones that resonate, that's what they remember. And it's kind of where quantity leads to quality like we say in design thinking. So, that's why always being a net giver is important. And also, acknowledging that the other person has felt that, is that what you wanted, “Is there something else I can do?” So, not every emotional deposit carries the same weight because sometimes it's pennies, nickels, dimes, dollars but the other thing that I’d like to say on the check-in principle is it's also a checkout principle too is that if you watch your dimes, the dollars take care of themselves. So, all of those times that you're checking in, make it a lot easier when you check out. And you are the personification of that, sir. You do such a good job with the people that you're making these emotional deposits and you're investing in them. And I think that's really important is that it's an investment in people and that's where we make our biggest difference.
Jayneil: Investing in people. You've been doing this for, I don't know, it’s however long like 10-15 years running the Big Design Conference and running also the Dallas UX Peer Meetup group. I’m probably sure you get hit up a lot with favors. So, what are some of the negative ways that people hit you up for favors and stuff that just turned you off, you were like “I don't think I want to help them out,” no not like you don’t want to help them out but you just see that as a very transactional based.
Brian: Right, yeah. I think that you have different types of communications that occur. So, you have ones that, like you said, are transactional – “I need you to do this for me.” And then you have ones that are transitional. You know that you're only going to see that person for a short amount of time and then they're going to move on. And maybe it's because they're in a state of transition like they may have been furloughed or laid off. And so, they come back to the UX Meetup or they come to the conference with a very particular agenda in mind. And so, that's a transitional interaction but then you have these ones that are transformational that you know that if you make that investment that you have a really good feeling that that person is going to take it to heart and they're going to make some change. And those are the ones that I like to participate in. And the thing is, Jayneil, it doesn't matter what type of relationship it is or interaction. It doesn't matter if it's transactional, transitional or transformational. All of those are emotional deposits in the piggy bank. They're all good. And the thing though that I think is most important is those transformational relationships but to answer your original question, I went off on a little tangent about different types of conversations that I have with people, the weirdest transformational instance, I guess, what I would call, I’m trying to find the right word, is this person came up to me and told me that I needed to pay them to attend the Big Design Conference.
Jayneil: Wow!
Brian: And I said “Okay, this is interesting. Can you tell me why?” And the person's response was “I bring the energy.” And I go “We already have enough energy, you know. What else do you have?” I mean, that was so bizarre. The weirdest transitional conversation that I’ve had, and this one's very common, is “Hey, you're a community leader. I need you to look in your rolodex and find me a job.”
Jayneil: Like you owe them.
Brian: Yeah, it's almost like an entitlement or like I owe them. The most wonderful transformational relationships is you see someone, and it's not unlike you, you can just tell that there are certain people that have potential and that they're going to put in the work and that they're curious and that they're positive people. And there's a couple of young ladies that are in my SMU class this last semester. And I don't do this that often, Jayneil. I will target usually just a couple of the groups and I will stick through the entire class with them and not just my class but other classes and I kind of become mentors for them and we have one-on-one sessions. And there was this one lady that blew my mind. She's a younger lady. She's trying to move from Graphic Design into User Experience Design and builds the most beautiful visual designs, amazing, just amazing, top notch. And I could just tell that her issue was creative confidence and imposter syndrome and perfectionism. And so, with her, I just said to her, I go, “I can tell right away,” and this is on a one-on-one discussion, “that you're a perfectionist and I’m going to tell you a dirty little secret with perfectionists. Perfectionists put everything into their design because they want your approval of them as a person and that they think that their value as a person is tied to their work.” And I said to this young lady and I think I really took her by surprise, I said to her “Hey, look, this is your uncle Brian speaking. You are good enough just the way you are right now. You don't have to prove anything to me and your work is good enough to be a user experience designer now. And it isn't about your self-worth. It's about helping people solve problems. So, I need you to kind of have that mind shift and I need you to switch from becoming a perfectionist to becoming a recovering perfectionist.” And we've had like a lot of conversations but I think that conversation was really important for her because she was really tying a lot of her personal self-worth into her perfectionist tendencies and I think it was eating her up a little bit. She's a wonderful person and she needed that type of conversation. And what's so nice is, again, it was a transformational relationship. And, Jayneil, what was beautiful is that she put in the work. Good God, man, did she put in the work? She produced probably one of the best overall designs that we've ever seen in the program. This is our fifth year of the program and this is a top five presentation. So, she had this beautiful case study and she's finishing up her electives now and she has already moved into a product design role at a local company. And, to me, that's the beauty of these transformational relationships. Transactional relationships are okay. It's “You do this. I do this.” Transitional relationships, those are fine too because sometimes a person is under stress, they're under pressure. There's a lot of transitional relationships right now because of COVID. It's just natural. People are looking for jobs, maybe a spouse is out of work, they're under a lot of financial pressure and that's okay. It's okay as a leader to have those type of conversations. Transformational relationships are awesome because the other person is changed and then your relationship also gets changed and developed and then they get to do reverse mentoring for you. Earlier in the conversation, you were saying “Oh my God! Brian, this book Atomic Habits, it changed my life. It's going to change your life.” Absolutely. So, the mentee became the mentor and we had a bit of a reversal. Those are the things that are nice when the relationships transform, right?
Jayneil: So, you have some kind of radar that from all the years of experience of interacting with people that maybe in a few encounters you can tell who is going to put in the work and there's potential to be a transformational relationship and then who is just looking for a quid pro quo. Would that be right way to say it or do you have some metrics by which you judge?
Brian: Well, Jayneil, to be honest with you, you've heard of the phrase “I can read you like a comic book” or “I can read you like a book.” So, “I can read you like a book” is what some people say. Ones that are transitional relationships, I can read them like a comic book. Ones that are transactional, I can read you like a one-cell comic. I mean it's just like reading The Family Circus or The Far Side because it's so direct. And the people aren't going to put any work, they want you to do all the work and everything is on you, nothing is on them. The transitional ones, you can just kind of see people are under pressure. The transformational ones, it's just asking a couple of questions – “Why are you here? What are you wanting to get out of this? What are you willing to put in?” And one of the things, I think, I had told you earlier was that when you're doing collaboration, it's a contact sport. You can't do it on the sideline. It's a contact sport. So, you have to do that give and take, that back and forth and a lot of people aren't comfortable with that. They want to put it off a little bit. And it's a contact sport. You got to get in there. And you can just tell right away who's going to do it just by the way that they act, by the results that they produce, by showing up “Hey, here's what I’ve read. Here's what I’ve learned. Hey, I applied this” and you just kind of have those encounters that are a little bit deeper and you know that they're asking you deeply personal questions and they're revealing themselves to you by the way that they conduct themselves and by the questions that they're asking. So, it's not that hard to do it and over time you get better. And you, Jayneil, I know that you could read someone like a one-cell comic strip too but it's not that difficult. And I think the thing though that can hurt is when you have what you think is a transformational relationship and then sometimes you're surprised that the other person doesn't view it that way, they view it as maybe transitional or transactional, they get what they want and then they go away. And you know what? That's okay because then you know where you stand. That's totally okay.
Jayneil: Don't you get burned by that or upset like “Man, this guy just” or “a person just ripped me off … not ripped me off but didn't view my relationship as more meaningful.”
Brian: Oh, well, I think it does hurt but I think with the way to look at it, Jayneil, the way I look at it is maybe a little bit differently than other people. I’m a religious person. And so, when that happens to me, I don't look at it as being there's an issue between me and this other person. It’s I did good for this person and it's really about my relationship with God. And by doing those emotional deposits in the piggy bank, it's showing that I’m doing what I’m supposed to do as a spiritual person, as a good person. And those are also investments kind of into my spiritual life. So, my relationship with god is good. My relationship with this person who is a children of God is probably a little bit different. In the future, I’ll still continue to make investments in that person. I just won't be putting in dollars and quarters. I’ll probably put in nickels and pennies. Does that make sense?
Jayneil: It does because over the years, I mean, I see you as one of the gatekeepers for the UX community in Dallas. So, we both have seen some shady characters that have come, some that have even stolen money but despite all that, you taught me that very early on, and this is one of the things that, I think, who I am today is because of all those hour-long conversations very early on in my career where we would be on call for three hours and what you would do is like “Jayneil, this is the situation. This is what happened. What would you do?” and you’d make me think like a chess player kind of like a Sun Tzu like the Art of War kind of thing and you’d make me think and then you'd give me the right answer. So, you told me in one of those conversations that “Maybe out of 10 people that you meet, three or four might be bad apple or they might stab you or something, I mean, do some shady stuff but then the remaining seven people are still good people. So, don't give up on investing in the community for those three bad apples.”
Brian: Right. Yeah, it's a matter of continuing to do those investments. Nobody likes the redemption story better than me. so, one of those three shady characters may have been under some pressure and it could be at home, it could be at work, it could be something to do with their family. They can change, they can blossom and they can actually kind of redeem themselves. And I’ve been surprised. I can't tell you how many times I’ve been surprised where there has been a person undergoing a situation, they're acting a certain way and it turns out, I can remember with one person, that it turns out they're going through a divorce and that they're ill and they're having to take medicine. So, just imagine just those three things alone, let alone having children and trying to finish up school, they're trying to get an MBA and they're having to work. That's a lot of pressure on an individual. And when some of those things clear up like their disease goes into remission, they're able to make things better with their spouse, their family life gets better, then that pressure kind of goes away and they actually start to do good. So, there's nothing better than a redemption story and I’ve seen that happen too. And people are strange, Jayneil. I think I’ve heard it said that people are contradictory and complex. They're contradictory and complex. They're the problem and they're also the solution.
Jayneil: But there's got to be like lines like I would think that if somebody … A redemption story is great and what I’m thinking is there's got to be some kind of limit that if you maybe cross this limit, then you don't have a shot at redemption, meaning it just has gone too far like how people say “Well, these people can't change because they did something that was just really bad” or something like that. So, is there like a limit?
Brian: There are boundaries. You got to have some boundaries because if you don't, then you run into a situation where you're enabling someone to behave badly, you could have some type of co-dependency that's happening, you could have some manipulation that happens. So, you do have to establish some really good boundaries and rules in your relationship so that you have kind of that balance and distance that makes things work for you and that particular person and both parties need to respect that. And I’ve tried to do that as best I can with people. I think balance and distance help out and I tend to invest in the people that I just see potential with and that put in the work. Somebody like you or Tony Daussat or Autumn Hood, Jay Shu, just to name a few, Lauren Parr, these are people that are just good high-quality people that it's not just that they're going to do good for themselves. They're going to spread it and they want others to do good too. And it has this multiplier effect on people and it's transformative. And here's how you can change the world, Jayneil. As an individual, the first thing you have to do is get stuff right with yourself. And what I mean by that is you need to eat right, you need to exercise, drink plenty of water, get sleep, make sure that you're keeping up to date with your skills, that you're a good person. Then you need to get it right with whoever you're involved with, your family. So, get it right with your family. If it's not your family, then maybe it's a boyfriend, girlfriend or partner. Get it right with them. Then get it right with the people at work. Then you need to get it right with your neighbor. Then get it right in your neighborhood, then in your community, then in your state, then in your nation, then in your world. That's how you change the world and it happens one relationship at a time and it's usually in that transformation bucket that we were talking about before. That's how you change the world. Your podcast right now is changing the world and it's basically one soul at a time and they'll tell their friends and so on and so on and so on. That's how you change the world, man.
Jayneil: Wow! I’m speechless, man. I’m just thinking about some of the things you mentioned.
Brian: That’s a first.
Jayneil: It was a very different approach because a lot of times, the idea is I want to impact a billion people and you start with a goal. So, it's kind of like putting that goal out there and trying to scale that goal but what you're doing is you're kind of like working at the grassroot level and saying that “I’m going to invest in this student and this person.” I’m very grateful to be one of your students. And you mentioned Tony and other people. So, I can tell for a fact that if you do some favor for Tony or Jay Shu, they're not going to take it for granted. So, have you ever had something where you kind of like give people benefit of the doubt and you invest in them but they just assume that that's a given like “Well, Brian is going to do this for us” and they stopped making the deposits to our checking account?
Brian: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. That's happened. Yeah, the emotional piggy bank has been broken more than a few times. And I have like a voice that's pretty chill and pretty calm but then like … And I have a long fuse too. I have a very long fuse.
Jayneil: This seems like infinite.
Brian: It seems infinite. It's not. And I believe in second, third, fourth, fifth chances. I really do. AND I do love that redemption story but I do have to establish boundaries. And there are times where the emotional piggy bank has been broken and there's kind of no turning back. And a lot of it is I have to get this particular person or situation out of my life for right now. And it's not that I don't revisit them or check it out. We could come back and start all over. And rather than it being a transformational relationship, now it's transactional. We're back to transactional. Then it could be transitional, then back to transactional. And, again, those are kind of those boundaries. And I have like inner circle of advisors and it's really important to have that inner circle of advisors. And I would also say that your inner circle of advisors, you need to have diversity of opinions inside of that and different perspectives. So, I have different ethnicities that I interact with. I have different genders, sexual orientations, immigrants, native Americans, people from England and France and China and then really big names inside the user experience field that I can send an email to and say “Hey, man, I’m struggling with this. Blah, blah, blah” and they give me just terrific advice.
Jayneil: You're not afraid to do that, meaning you're a design leader now, so you're not shying away that as a design leader you're asking other people for this kind of feedback and opinion.
Brian: Well, the thing is that even when you're a design leader, you need to continue to grow. And the job of a design leader is to build future design leaders. And we've talked about this ad nauseam, Jayneil, that leaders build other leaders. And I think design leaders should be building future design leaders which, again, goes back to those transformational relationships. If we can invest in those people, at a certain point, I’m going to retire, uncle Brian, he’s getting old, a little slower, it's just a matter of time before he's going to step down, move on, do whatever and other people are going to step up. And there are certain things I’m not doing and I cannot tell you how stoked and jazzed and excited I am that you and Tony and other people are doing all these great podcasts and sharing information and getting insights. I was talking about I’m trying to do 9 miles a day in the month of July and usually start at least one of those walks listening to the Tony Daussat podcast. And it's great because I’m keeping tabs on you guys and I’m seeing just how much love and warmth and knowledge and learning and sharing and growing that you guys are contributing to the overall conversation. And you guys are now design leaders building future design leaders too and I’m just so blessed to be able to see you guys doing that because I don't do that and you guys are leading the way in this area and it's fantastic. And it's so needed especially now because, I think, people want to feel connected, respected and accepted and with COVID, I think, people feel disconnected, disrespected and not accepted right now because we're in such a turbulent time in our history. So, I think these podcasts are just really a great opportunity for people to make those connections, make those emotional deposits in the piggy bank and reach out to a global audience. I mean, I think it's fantastic that you guys are doing this and I just applaud you and I’m tickled pink to be on your podcast right now
Jayneil: Oh my God! I think one of the challenges that I always thought about is there's your personal goals, what you want to do, you want to grow as a person, you want to grow your brand and then you want to invest, and this is going to be a bunch of stuff that I’m just going to speak out. So, with the podcast, one of the ways that I’ve been able to actualize the principles you've taught me like the checking account principle, making emotional deposits, so everybody that's come on the show, I’ve sent them a copy of a book that I’ve read. Now, I don't need to do that like there's no ironclad rule but I’ve noticed that by that emotional gesture, people have appreciated that, that “Hey, you know what, I could have gone on either podcast but I appreciate that you sent me a book and thank you for that” and I’ve seen that if I ask them for favors like “Can you introduce me to this person?”, they're more receptive. So, that was one thing that I learned from our conversations. Second thing that, I think, you trained me really well was kind of reading people. And I know this seems to people like this is the dark art but you told me very early on saying that “Jayneil, don't run away from politics. Embrace it because at the end of the day, you're embracing people.” And I think I’m still learning but I’ve been able to figure out by asking questions and seeing their intentions like I always remember that you would ask people, whenever they ask you for a job, you'll be like “Come to the UX Meetup in Dallas on this day.” So, that's like your first test like “If you can't even put in that much effort to show up there, then there's no point there.” Then they show up. There's like checkpoints and how many times do they show up. And then you kind of build a mental roadmap. And being an engineer by trade, I can't help put it into some kind of pattern or framework. So, I’ve been able to use that in a way to figure out who do you invest that time in like who do you help out because, obviously, you can't just help out everybody because that’ll be doing a disservice to your skill set too if you just invested in everybody willy-nilly and they're not going to do right by that investment.
Brian: Well, yeah. And people need to be making emotional deposits into your piggy bank too. And so, it sounds a little transactional but I think that that's how relationships grow. They're initially transactional. Then they become transitional. Then they become transformative also. I think that's also natural. So, it's not just that there are three separate buckets. I think that sometimes a person can be in all three buckets at the same time.
Jayneil: Really?
Brian: Oh, yeah, yeah. I could have somebody that maybe I’m doing a side project with, we're in fully transitional roles and it's going to be short time and outside of that side hustle, we're kind of investing and growing in some type of transformative way, maybe I’m struggling with something. And then I could hear that “Hey, maybe there's this thing that I need and this person has a skill set and I’m willing to pay for it.” And then we have to create some type of transactional deal. That's happened before too. And the nice thing about the three buckets, the whole checking principle is that it kind of establishes those boundaries for you. The thing about the books that I think is really nice, you also craft the books to the person, right?
Jayneil: Yes.
Brian: Do you remember what book you gave me?
Jayneil: The first one or … I remember was Atomic Habits and then before that … oh, yes, Collaborating with the Enemy because I literally thought about you when I was reading that book.
Brian: Yeah, Collaborating with the Enemy and it's kind of talking about how to work with people you don't trust or like, which I thought was like super interesting and then it reminded me a little bit of Radical Candor which is a book Jay Shu gave me and then there's a little bit about collaboration and communication in Atomic Habits too. It's very interesting that leaders are readers and as a leader, you say “Hey, here's a person that I want to have a conversation with and I’m going to very purposely and with a certain intention give them this book so I can have this type of conversation with them.” So, I devoured both books and I was saying earlier like Atomic Habits changed my life and probably extended it. I think a lot of people, they can't see me on the podcast, but I’ve lost 60 pounds in 18 months and a lot of it is by just making changes, these atomic habits, really small ones and then just seeing the impact of that over time and those are all those personal investments that I made in myself and over time it pays dividends but I really like the fact that you give these gifts and that's something that I haven't really done. I kind of learned it from you and Jay has learned that from you too. So, Jay also likes to read books and he and I talk a lot about books. And I can't tell you how many times he is reading a book and he goes “You have to read this book. You have to read this book” and I’m like in the middle of four books and I have to stop everything because there's this book that he wants to have a discussion with. And then I read the book and it's like “Oh my God, this is exactly what we needed at this time.” And the last book that we kind of read together was Practical Empathy by Andy Young and it's about how to be a really good listener. And Jay, interestingly enough, he talks all the time and …
Jayneil: He's got an amazing voice.
Brian: He does have an amazing voice.
Jayneil: Very commanding as well.
Brian: Yeah. And the thing that people mistake about Jay is, he's talking all the time, they don't realize he's listening all the time too. And I’ve never seen a person like him who can carry on and track multiple conversations and have like this incredible instant recall. And so, I started reading practical empathy and it was shortly after the Collaborating with the Enemy book. And what was funny is we did a book exchange and Jay was reading Practical Empathy and then he was telling me “You got to read this other book” and it's just funny but, yeah, leaders are readers. And I think that one of the interesting things about the checking principle is I can remember this one time, Jayneil, I’m on a really hard project with a person who's struggling and she's frustrated and she's angry, she's also extremely creative and she felt like people weren't listening to her. So, I pulled her to the side and I had brought her a book and it was a book written by Thomas Edison's great granddaughter called Midnight Lunches. And it was a principle that Thomas Edison had at his idea factory is what he called it. And the idea factory had people from different disciplines – engineers, chemists, artisans, painters – and they tend to work best at night. And Edison would pack them midnight lunches and they would have this buffet lunch and it was their chance to interact and collaborate in a very safe way. And I can remember this young lady almost crying when I gave her the book and she had a long flight home, she was in Texas and had to go, I think, to Seattle and she devoured the book and said it was exactly what she needed. And I’m imagining that some of the books that you give other people that they're encountering that too. And I can tell you again Atomic Habits changed my life. And so, thank you for changing my life.
Jayneil: Oh my God! That's like the least I could do. On a personal note, one of the things that I remember from our conversations on a very deep level, and the guilty shall remain nameless, but there was this moment in my career where I was hoping to get a new job offer and it was going to be a promotion. I think, on paper I might have made extra 20,000 dollars on my salary at that time and things are pretty good and the place where I was join, a few designers there saw me as a competition like “Okay, if Jayneil comes here, it might get competitive,” whatever the reason might be. And they proactively worked to sabotage my move. I don't know what happened but that's just I know, they did some things behind the scene to kind of make sure that I did not come there. And I was so frustrated. I remember calling you and once I vented out revenge and all these things, you said one line to me that I’ve tried to live by and actually need to do a better job of is “Jayneil, the best revenge is massive success. Go massive.” That was a game changer. And then you kind of walked me through. And I really wish like sometime I could have just taped our conversations to take people back in the time machine but you kind of like walked me through like “Jayneil, listen, in a few months, you have to give a talk. You have to give a design talk in front of so many people. If you focus on just revenge and doing things right, you're going to miss that opportunity. So, you need to go ahead and focus on what you do best in your design work” and you would check in on me like every week and so making sure that I was on track. And, Brian, the best thing that happened there was when I was giving that talk at the conference, the guilty were there in attendance. And seeing their face after the whole thing was just priceless in a way because you could say I got my revenge. I did what I was supposed to do without worrying about what they did to me.
Brian: Yeah, the best revenge s massive success. You went massive. They probably felt threatened by you. And, Jayneil, here's another one of my favorite sayings and this is the current one – “You're either winning or you're whining.”
Jayneil: Oh wow! I got to write that down.
Brian: You were winning. They were whining. And whining is not a strategy. Differentiation is a strategy. And you're a person that is priceless. You are genuine. You have a voice. You have a certain set of skills that makes you unique. One of the things that's special about you is that you're able to talk to the business in a very meaningful way. And I know the people that you're talking about. They are not comfortable talking to the business in the way that you are. So, of course, they would see you as competition. And I say this an awful lot to people that I have these transformational relationships with and I know I’ve said this to you before and that's that if you're a good person, which Jayneil is a good person and you're putting in the work, which Jayneil does and you're trying to do good in the world, if somebody has a problem with you, 99% of the time it's that person that has the issue. Now, that 1% of the time, it's probably situational, but a lot of the time, it has to do with that person's insecurities, it has to do with that person being nervous, it could be pressure that they're under but you're a good person, you're trying to make a difference in the world and whatever happened to you, it was such a short-term thing that in the grand scheme of life, that's not going to hold you back because you have an abundance mindset. They have a scarcity mindset. They look at everything in terms of like “Oh my God! If this person comes in, then blah, blah, blah.” It's a scarcity mindset whereas Jayneil looks at it as an abundance mindset. It's like “Here's an opportunity for everybody to move up and we can do this and this and this and this.” And I think that's really important as you develop your relationships, you want to be able to have people that have an abundance mindset. And I like that you didn't give up. I like that you stayed focused, you didn't major in the minors, which is all of the negativity and the situation didn't work out. What did you do? You recovered and you majored in the majors. You gave a great talk. That talk was well received. They were in the audience but I also recall, Jayneil, that there were other design leaders, people from other states, people from other countries, there were design leaders from other companies. You had people supporting you from the company you were working at, at that time. They were in the audience. And then I believe that I may have had the opportunity to introduce you and it was fantastic. Best revenge is massive success. Don't major in the minors. Have an abundance mindset. Continue to grow, play the long game.
Jayneil: The long game.
Brian: Yeah, play the long game.
Jayneil: You told me so many times. So, how would you describe the long game?
Brian: So, the long game is a lot of times people really focus in a very reactive way. They look at stuff very short term and it's very emotional and they don't understand the importance of kind of those atomic daily habits and how if you put in the work right now and you project yourself into the future, what is that future state going to be for you as a person, for you as a designer or a researcher or a strategist, who are you going to be in your personal life, in your professional life, in your spiritual life, it takes someone a little bit different to play the long game. And I think that, to use a golfing metaphor, these people were playing putt-putt while you were on an 18-hole golf course and in your arsenal, you have a one wood, a three wood, a five wood, a pitching wedge, you have everything. You have long game, short game, medium game and you understand that there are things that you have to do every day, every week, every month and you have a certain place that you want to be in the future and if you don't put in the work today, you're never going to get there in the future. A lot of people dream about some type of future state but they don't put in the work. The long game yeah is what is it that you're trying to accomplish not now, not tomorrow, not next week, not next month but really start thinking about next quarter, next year, four years, five years, 10 years from now and that's kind of the direction that you want to go in. And then when you have those goals set and you have that direction, the daily work that you put in is all about creating that better version of yourself that you're going towards. And, again, it's a lot like Sun Tzu, the metaphor of the mountain. So, if the mountain is in front of you, what are you going to do? Are you going to go through it? Are you going to go over it, around it? Are you going to move the mountain? Are you going to change directions? What are you going to do? You have to have that idea in place. And a lot of people don't have a long game. They don't even have a medium gain. They have very much a short game. There's a lot of people, Jayneil, that live paycheck to paycheck.
Jayneil: True.
Brian: That's very short game. Very few people have like a three to six-month emergency fund. Well, if you ask me, that's medium game. You need to be planning for a long game. Retirement's going to happen. There's one thing that's going to happen. We're all going to retire. We're all going to die. What do you want to be in retirement, what do you want to be remembered for, what impact do you want to have on the world? That comes down to what is the long game. And people are so reactive. They're not thinking in a proactive way and “What are the things that I need to do now to navigate to that better version of myself, that future state?” And I think that you have a longer-term vision of yourself now. Earlier on, you had to get your career established and you had to learn your skills and then you created kind of this identity and then it's blossomed and grown and now you're doing like really cool stuff and you're starting to think about what is that future state for yourself and you're taking steps now in a very positive way to build that. The long game is it's not like next minute, next hour, next day, next week. It's really next quarter, next year, next five years and how do I get there, how do I navigate now to get to the future.
Jayneil: That's insane. I remember the first time you taught me that principle of the long game, it really helped me transform my relationship with people because when I was sitting across someone, no longer was it like a short-term thing like “Can you just get me a job? Can you get me a promotion? Can you do this for me?” It suddenly became the thing where “What if we are working together for the next 10 years in the design community or the design industry?” So, I felt like the way I was starting to see relationships with people was very different. And I think it also inspired me to let go of stupid things in the short term and also do right by people as much as possible where you can. So, this way, if you think about it like “From 10 years from now, I’m going to work with this person again,” I don't want to piss them off for like a small promotion right now because what if they become the head of design in a couple of years and then I might want to work at that company and I just screwed over for this small promotion.
Brian: Yeah. And if you're playing the long game and you tie that back to transactional, transitional, transformative buckets, when you play the long game, you tend to then look for those people that are going to help you become the best version of yourself. So, “How do I transform into that person?” And then my relationships with certain people, I let stuff go. I major in the majors. I don't major in the minors. I don't get angry with this person in their short-term goals and reactions. I don't do that. I don't major in the minors. And the long game and the types of relationships you have really, I think, play into how you approach life in general.
Jayneil: So, maybe this could be particularly for Dallas but I think it can be applied to anywhere, what would your advice be to someone who's trying to break into design, having helped so many people break into design including me?
Brian: Yeah. I think when you're trying to break into design, what you need to do is first off make sure that this is something that you want to do. So, you're going to need to put in some research. And some of that is going to be going to meetups and not just the User Experience Dallas meetup. We have a ton of meetups in Dallas. Go to the Service Design Meetup. Go to the WordPress Meetup. You might want to visit other cities Austin, Houston, Tulsa, wherever. Go to those meetups and just try to learn that information, meet new people and then have those conversations because it is a contact sport. So, you've got to do that networking. And put in that work. Do some side hustles so that you can kind of hone your craft a little bit. So, we have like hackathons and we have Dallas GiveCamp. There are just these great groups of people that you can be around in the community and you've got to learn, you've got to understand the direction that you want to go. And user experience is a really big umbrella. Design is a big umbrella. Are you going to be a visual designer? Are you going to be a content writer? Are you going to be doing strategy, research? Are you going to be doing UI design, user experience design, information architecture, branding? Figure out what is that thing that you're passionate about. Figure out your passion and then focus in on that. Understand your process too. You got to develop a process. And here's the thing about process, Jayneil. If you don't have a process, people don't do it. And if you can't explain your process, people don't understand who you are. So, find your passion, develop a process, have some side hustles or volunteer projects where you can show your process and understand the impact. And I think that one of the things that is really important no matter what you choose as a design professional is get to understand the business a little bit more so that you understand why the business is investing in technology that they're investing in, who are their customers, why are they making these decisions. And if you can do that and have deeper more meaningful communication and collaboration with the people on your product team, I think you can build transformative products, services and experiences and I think you'll break into UX. And I’ve seen it time and time again with yourself, with the ladies that I was telling you about earlier in the SMU class that she had such creative confidence issues and it's like “Oh my God!” She had such beautiful design work and it was imposter syndrome, perfectionism but she did the learning, she put in the work, she went to the meetups, she took side hustles and before even graduating from the program, she's already made the transition. She's at a new job as a product designer. That's amazing to me. So, if you're trying to break into UX, those are the things you need to do. You also need to probably find a mentor. I mentor people. Jay does. Jayneil, Tony Daussat, Autumn Hood, Anita Cater, these are all really good high-quality people that invest in other people and they love to see people grow. That's what you need to do. Research, research, research. Practice, practice, practice. Network, network, network.
Jayneil: Designers don't like to always network from what I’ve seen. It's more of like “Let me just create something beautiful. It'll speak for itself” but I think networking is a very important piece of that puzzle.
Brian: You're the human LinkedIn machine, man. And you are. You are. One of the things that I like to explain to people is I’m an introvert. Some people they look at me and they think “Oh my God! He's such an extrovert blah, blah, blah.” I’m an introvert but when I’m really comfortable with my tribe, I speak out a whole lot. I mean, I love a good movie, a good book. Hell, I love a good rerun. I can't tell you how many times I’ve watched Avengers End Game. There are just certain things that I just can do and they don't even involve people but I also love people too. And I think that people are surprised about that but networking is definitely a contact sport. And as an introvert, one of the things I like to tell people, here's a template that I can give you that would help you just to network with people a little bit easier. And I have people practice a lot and you've seen me do this in the meetup. So, it's kind of a fill in the blank template – “Hello! My name is” … fill in the blank. “I am a …” fill in the blank. “The last cool project that I worked on was …” fill in the blank. “This project is about …” filling the blank. “I learned these things on the project …” fill in the blank, fill in the blank, fill in the blank. And you always end with “How cool is that! How cool is that!” And then know it's open-ended and they're “Oh my God! Tell me more about this and tell me more about the project.” And then you can reverse it. And so, if you want to learn about someone, “Hey, what's your name? Tell me what you do for a living. Where do you work? Tell me about the last school project you worked on. What did you learn in that project?” And then when they finish talking, “Oh my God! How cool is that.” And then they just love you. Another template that I like to use is ask someone what they do in a networking situation. They always go to their job. And then you ask them “Okay, great. Now that I know what you do for a living, tell me what you love to do.” And, Jayneil, I know. You're a brown guy who likes to cook, right?
Jayneil: Oh yeah, that was on business card back in the day. It said on the back “A dude who loves to cook and do UX.”
Brian: Yeah, “A brown dude that likes to cook and do UX.” And in these network settings, you would talk about different recipes that you tried out. And other people will say “Oh, I love to read” and you could say that, you’d say “I’ve read this book and this book and this book.” And other people would say “I like to hike.” – “Well, what's the coolest hiking trail you've been on?” and people will tell you. And so, if you kind of tap into their passion a little bit, I think you have a more interesting conversation. And the cool thing is, as an introvert, you're just kind of asking questions and you're letting them do all the talking. And then a third strategy that I have, it's not really a template, is I tend to hang out with an extrovert at parties because the party comes to them, Jayneil.
Jayneil: Boom! I love that.
Brian: And then you just get introduced to everyone …
Jayneil: That comes through them.
Brian: Yeah. So, I typically will hang out with Jay and there's no one more extroverted than Jay and Jay likes to hang out in the middle of the room. And then he's so tall … And to be honest with you, Jayneil, we were at this one party. And so, for those that don't know Jay, Jay is like 6-foot 4. So, of course, we go to this one party and it's up north at a conference. And because he's from Texas, he decides to wear cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and he looks like he's 6-8 and he stands in the middle of the room and he's loud and everybody was just attracted to him. And so, it's like I was hanging out with him and laughing and we had such a great time and Jay would tell his stories that I’ve heard a million times over and everyone's laughing and then he'd say “Hey, do you know my friend Brian?” And that's a really great way to have the party come to you if you're an introvert. Hang out with an extrovert. The other thing that you need to do is, again, on the theme of networking is a contact sport, you need to have story stacks. You need to have stories that you can tell people. And we can tell them over and over again and we've practiced them. So, I have like a lot of different stories that I can pull out given any different situation and I’ll talk about it. And people love hearing the story and then you can say “Well, what did you get out of the story?” Let me give you an example of a story stack real quick.
Jayneil: Okay.
Brian: So, here's one of the stories that I like to tell people. So, I’ll tell the story and I’ll tell you different ways that I can apply that in a conversation in a networking conversation.
Jayneil: Perfect.
Brian: So, let me tell you a story about a little boy who is walking down the street and he comes across this sign near this fence that says “Puppy's for sale” and he gets all excited and he starts banging on the gate and he sees this old man walk up and he says “Mister, mister, mister, I have 5 dollars. I want to buy one of your puppies.” And the old man says “Son, I’m sorry to disappoint you but I’m a dog breeder and you're not going to be able to afford one of my puppies for 5 dollars.” And the little boy is really a little upset, he kind of looks down at the ground and then he gets an idea and he says “Mister, could I hold one of your puppies for 5 dollars?” The man just looks at him and he goes “Listen, son you can hold one of my puppies for free” and he whistles and he calls to his dog Molly. And, Jayneil, you've seen this in movies. You've seen this in real life. The mama dog comes around the corner and she's wagging her tail, happy to see that there's a little boy there, happy to see her master there. And there's like three or four little puppies yip-yapping and trying to bite their momma's tail. And then there's another dog that's a little bit slower, a little bit smaller than the other dogs. It's the runt of the litter. The little boy sees the runt and he says, “Mister, mister, that's the dog for me. That's the dog that I want. I know what that dog feels like.” And the guy goes “Oh my God, son, what are you talking about? Listen, I’m a dog breeder. Nobody wants the runt of the litter. They're a little bit slower. They're sicker. You have to take care of this dog. Nobody wants the runt of the litter.” And the little boy goes “Mister, I do.” And he reaches down and he pulls up his pant leg to reveal that he has an artificial leg.
Jayneil: Oh my God!
Brian: And the old man realizes what's happened and he says to that boy “Son, you can have this dog for free.” That's a story stack. That's a story I’ve probably told a hundred times, Jayneil.
Jayneil: Wonderful.
Brian: It's a powerful story, right? And everyone has a dog story. Everyone has a story stack, things that are unique to their personality. And as an introvert, I have found having stories like that to be powerful because I can use that story stack within a different situation, within a different context. So, let's say that I’m at a user research conference and I want to talk about empathy. Well, you certainly feel empathy. You feel empathy for the little boy, for the runt of the litter, you feel empathy for the old man. The old man experiences empathy. He has cognitive empathy because he just realized “Oh my God! This little boy has an artificial leg.” He has emotional empathy. He has to process his cognitive empathy. And then he has compassionate empathy. He needs to do something about it. And “Son, you can have this dog for free.” The little boy also goes through empathy. This is also an example of maybe generations not being able to communicate effectively. You have a little boy and an old man. When he said “Mister, I know what that dog feels like,” the old man didn't understand it, right? So, I can use it to represent empathy. I can use it to be an example of compassion. So, depending upon the context of a situation, I can reach into my arsenal of story stacks as an introvert, tell a story and then just ask people “What do you think about it?” And sometimes it's to get a laugh, sometimes it's to carry a conversation forward but as an introvert, I refer back to those templates that I told you about – “Hello! My name is …” and “What do you do? What do you love to do?” I hang out with an extrovert or I reach into my story stack to where I can just effectively network in these different situations because networking, Jayneil, is a contact sport. And it's very important, I think, as community leaders to be able to get out and talk to the community in a meaningful way. And introverts can do this. They really can.
Jayneil: That is brilliant.
Brian: It was absolutely amazing, man. I could totally feel it.
Jayneil: This story just made me lose my train of thought but, yes, one time, me and you were walking out from one of those events and I remember asking you that “Brian, as a community leader, everybody wants you as a sponsor or a mentor and you have limited capacity” and you said “Yes” and you replied back saying that “Just because you ask somebody for favor and they don't reply back doesn't necessarily always mean that they don't want to do it for you. It just means that they're not high up in your priority list.” So, my two-part question is how can someone get a sponsor like you. And if you're not mentoring or sponsoring them, how can they get high enough on your priority list because if they're going to get high enough on your list, that means that's a principle they can apply to anybody they want to reach out to?
Brian: Yeah. I think it's one of those things you have to prioritize as a leader. So, I’m going to look at it from the perspective first as a leader. So, you have to have the right priority. So, for me, it's God, then it's family, then it's my team at work and then it's community. And then within community, I would also classify those into different buckets. So, I have like the side hustle where I’m doing stuff at the colleges. So, I have students. And then I have it at the meetup and then I have it at the conference. And I look at the meetup and the conference as different. The meetup is like monthly engagements. The conference is an annual engagement. Now, there's crossover like you and Tony Daussat, you guys have spoken at the conference multiple times and you guys attend the meetup. So, I get to more frequently see you guys. So, you guys have some crossover effect. Sometimes, people are in all three buckets like Lauren Parr, for example. So, she's on my team, she comes to the meetups and she always participates in the conference. Kayla Wren was on my team but I still talk to her a couple of times a week. She still attends my meetup even though she's in California now and she's helping organize the conference. People can be in all three of those buckets. In all three of those buckets, I’m having more interactions with them. So, that's great but you have to even have priorities there. I have to see potential in that person, “Is this a worthwhile investment in my time? Are they putting in the work?”, like you said, “Are they attending the meetup? Are they you know doing really simple things like “Hey, here's a book that I read. Did you read that book?” – “No, I hadn't gotten around to it,” so kind of assessing stuff like that. If I’m spending a lot of time with that person and I’m not seeing progress, they're going to get de-prioritized because it's a waste of my time. And the most valuable thing that you and I have, Jayneil, any human being, is our time.
Jayneil: Correct.
Brian: We are on the earth for a very short amount of time and we have got to prioritize every minute of the day on what is worthwhile and is it worthwhile to that individual and is that individual going to grow as a person. And if that's good, what I get out of it is what I said before, my relationship with god is better. It's not about trying to extract something from that relationship with the individual. It's not because it's not that type of transactional relationship. It's a transformative relationship. I get to see them grow. They're going to help other people grow. So, that's kind of like putting these seeds and fertilizer within the overall community so that goodness and positivity grows and expands out and we get to see just more and more positivity and growth. So, that's the beauty of that but you do have to certainly de-prioritize people. You need to set boundaries with people but how does somebody move up? They attend the meetups. If we have talks like you, and I had like … I mean, you would instantly follow up and not only just follow up, you would go above and beyond. You'd say “I’m thinking about this. I’m thinking …” and I’m like “Wow! Okay, cool. That sounds cool. Let's try that.” And so, you would always go above and beyond. So, it wasn't just doing the minimal. So, it's really about trying to go above and beyond. And I’m not saying that people need to jump through hoops or anything for me. I just need to know is this going to be a worthwhile investment for me to either help this person grow, help the community grow, do I get reverse mentoring out of this, is it a transformational relationship, are they going to be at some point in my board of advisors that I just super trust and can count on to tell me when I’m messing up. And so, it's just that and it's making sure that people kind of do what they say. And that's kind of the important things to me is, is it worthwhile investment of my time on this individual, because at the end of the day, it's a zero-sum game for a leader because if I’m spending time with this person, I’m not spending time with another person. There's a story that I’ll tell here. I think I’ve mentioned it to you earlier. There was a CEO that I knew. She was a wonderful lady. She was a CEO by the time she was 36. And she ended up having a child. She had a big team, a really big team like thousands of people reported to her. And her husband gave her a gift and it was a brilliant gift. It was a onesie for the baby. And it said “You are not my CEO.”
Jayneil: Boom!
Brian: And that's important because he wanted to make sure that his wife, that child's mother, had the right priority – God, family, community. And he wanted to make sure that you know the community for the CEO would be her job but it needed to be God, family, and the child. “You are not my CEO.” So, the husband was giving his wife a gentle reminder of that. And I’m just imagining that in the middle of the night the babies with a onesie crying because she's hungry and the CEO is getting up to feed her newborn child and she gets that reminder “You are not my CEO.” And so, if somebody wants something from me and they're barking out orders, I kind of remember that story “You are not my CEO.” And I’ve actually said that to people – “Hey, man, you're not my CEO. You're not my wife. You're not my child. And if I’m going to invest time in you, I need you to be willing to put in the time.” And those are conversations that I think are very mature to have and to kind of establish some of those boundaries. And we talked earlier about how we can read people and it actually happens very quickly when you kind of ask a few questions and then you just quickly observe are they following up, are they following through, right?
Jayneil: That makes perfect sense. Wow, man! It's like I tried to summarize all the nuggets that I’ve been getting from you over the years into this episode so, hopefully, other people can learn from it and grow faster but from the bottom of my heart, Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show, talking with me, sharing with me your wisdom and, of course, mentoring me over the years like you're still doing now.
Brian: Oh, man, it's a reverse mentorship. It's a partnership. It's transformative. We're both better people. We're better together is something that I like to say. And when you have people like you, Tony, Jay, Lauren, Kayla, Cassini, just these people that can surround you in this really good nurturing space and we're able to do something beyond ourselves. One of the things that I wanted to talk about briefly is the scholarship program, if you don't mind.
Jayneil: Oh yeah.
Brian: So, one of the things that we did for Big Design this year, our theme is building a future legacy, and one of the things that we have done is established two permanent design scholarships at University of North Texas and UT Dallas. And every fall semester, a 1000-dollar scholarship will be handed out to a deserving student that will be known as a Big Design Scholar. So, it's a way of giving back to the community. These are endowments. So, it's a lot of money that we're investing into the community. So, 1000 dollars will get paid each fall semester to a different deserving student until the end of time because we're investing in the community because we believe that design leaders should build future design leaders. So, it's very much a community-driven community-focused effort. And I cannot wait to meet the first Big Design leader because in a few years, they're going to be teaching me some stuff just like you've done, Jayneil.
Jayneil: So, first of all, what are the dates for Big Design Conference? And it's happening remote this year, right?
Brian: It is happening virtual. It's a remote conference. You can go to BigDesignConference.com. The dates are September 9th through the 12th. We have reduced the ticket prices this year so that we can make it more affordable. We understand that with the economic downturn and COVID-19, people are struggling a little bit. And the other thing too is a remote conference is actually a little bit easier and more affordable to put on than an in-person conference. So, we're passing those savings on to anybody that wants to show up. All of the ticket prices that you see, if you want a discount code, this is the Jayneil discount code, it is bigd15. The face value of all the ticket prices will go down 15%. And just to give you an example, students can go to a four-day conference for less than a hundred bucks. So, furloughed and laid-off workers, they have the same rate as students too. They can go really for around … it's less than 90 bucks if you use the discount code. And, again, we're just trying to get people to come to the conference and make it affordable to them. The other thing that I’ll say about the conference is all of the money that we collect this year is going to fund these community design scholarships that I was just mentioning.
Jayneil: And how do students at UNT or any of these colleges that want to get that design scholarship, would they just reach out to you or would they just talk to their professor?
Brian: So, the first college that is going to be issuing it is the College of Visual Arts and Design at UNT. So, that one is open now. We just missed the dates for the fall semester. It was a matter of getting the right paperwork in. We barely missed it for UTD. So, it'll be available next year at UTD. It is open at UNT right now in the College of Visual Arts and Design. So, they can look there for scholarships. They could certainly reach out to Dr. Michael Gibson at the College of Visual Arts and Design also.
Jayneil: And how do people follow you or get in touch with you?
Brian: So, on twitter, you can do Big Design. We have a LinkedIn group called The Big Design Group and it's pretty active. We're looking to grow the group. I would really like to see people on the Big Design Group on LinkedIn. We're Big Design Events on Instagram. And I think we have a Facebook page for Big Design Events also. I think the main place that I would push people to though is the website BigDesignConference.com. And then we have a meetup, the User Experience Dallas Group. It's on Meetup. So, those are kind of the places where we hang out. So, kind of your typical social places. So, Twitter - Big Design. Big Design Group on LinkedIn. User Experience Dallas Group on Meetup. Big Design Events on Instagram and Facebook.
Jayneil: Awesome! Thank you so much, Brian. Really appreciate it. It's been a blast.
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